Unusual crosses

[AinisR28]

Hello!
We have a small farm in Europe and right now we're transitioning from dairy to beef cattle. One of the most important things is to choose the right breed of cattle. Since my father will mostly work with them alone, it's important that they are docile and calving is as easy as possible. So Angus and Hereford breeds seem to be most suitable for that. At the same time here in my country these are not the most popular breeds, so it's going to take quite a long time to build a purebred herd. Charolais and Limousine are much more popular breeds here.
So I wanted to ask You, is it smart to buy a purebred bull of Angus or Hereford breed and cross it not only with Angus or Hereford heifers, but also with Charolais, Limousin or Simmental heifers and cows? Usually when I read about crosses between maternal and terminal types of cattle, it's between maternal cows and terminal bulls, for example Charolais bull on Hereford cows.
How crosses the other way usually work out? I assume that calving should be much more easier using Angus bull on Charolais heifers, than purebred Charolais on Charolais, is it like that in reality? And also how much do crosses like that are going to (I assume negatively) influence weight gain of calves?

 

[farmerjan]

Welcome to the forum. If you go to your name top right, down to account details, and down to location you could put in your country or area so that we can try to relate to things that you do there.
If you have not read anything yet ... @lithuanian farmer has some great threads on her cattle breeding enterprise. She is a vet, they started with dairy and crosses and she does alot of work with different beef breeds. Have no idea if you are even in the general geographic area, but I would be willing to think she would be of a big help for information on things like that. The Limousin and Charolais cattle there, are built a bit different than many here in the USA, and your markets there are different also. Double muscled cattle are not in favor here, and even some of the nice Limi and Char bulls you have available there are heavily muscled... I like them, but they do not grade well here....

 

[AinisR28]

Welcome to the forum. If you go to your name top right, down to account details, and down to location you could put in your country or area so that we can try to relate to things that you do there.
If you have not read anything yet ... @lithuanian farmer has some great threads on her cattle breeding enterprise. She is a vet, they started with dairy and crosses and she does alot of work with different beef breeds. Have no idea if you are even in the general geographic area, but I would be willing to think she would be of a big help for information on things like that. The Limousin and Charolais cattle there, are built a bit different than many here in the USA, and your markets there are different also. Double muscled cattle are not in favor here, and even some of the nice Limi and Char bulls you have available there are heavily muscled... I like them, but they do not grade well here....

Thank you very much for advice... About Lithuanian farmer, I'll take a time reading her threads, since I'm from Latvia (neighboring country of Lithuania) her threads could be very relatable to our situation.

 

[GoWyo]

If you like steaks on a grill then better mix in some Angus or Hereford for the marbling. If steaks aren't your thing then raise what the market wants, which appears to be lean muscle in Europe.

 

[farmerjan]

I don't know how busy she is, but you can also contact her through the PM (private message) and maybe you can connect that way. It's the little envelope next your name top right... She does a great job of posting things like birth weights and such, and has some of the calmest cattle that she can go up to and scratch out in the field when she is taking pictures and doing some videos.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Hello!
We have a small farm in Europe and right now we're transitioning from dairy to beef cattle. One of the most important things is to choose the right breed of cattle. Since my father will mostly work with them alone, it's important that they are docile and calving is as easy as possible. So Angus and Hereford breeds seem to be most suitable for that. At the same time here in my country these are not the most popular breeds, so it's going to take quite a long time to build a purebred herd. Charolais and Limousine are much more popular breeds here.
So I wanted to ask You, is it smart to buy a purebred bull of Angus or Hereford breed and cross it not only with Angus or Hereford heifers, but also with Charolais, Limousin or Simmental heifers and cows? Usually when I read about crosses between maternal and terminal types of cattle, it's between maternal cows and terminal bulls, for example Charolais bull on Hereford cows.
How crosses the other way usually work out? I assume that calving should be much more easier using Angus bull on Charolais heifers, than purebred Charolais on Charolais, is it like that in reality? And also how much do crosses like that are going to (I assume negatively) influence weight gain of calves?

Hi, welcome to the forum! Could I ask which country you are from?
What I have learned during all these years is that the breed doesn't matter much when it comes to calving ease. There are both hard calving and easy calving lines in every breed. We personally stopped using Angus as they caused us more issues at calving heifer than , for example, limousines. Also cows tend to be abit too protective at the calving time and sometimes it causes some issues.
The main question is what do you want to do with your cattle. Do you plan to sell weanlings, raise your own replacements, fatten bulls, etc. What kind of market you have at your country?

 

[lithuanian farmer]

I don't know how busy she is, but you can also contact her through the PM (private message) and maybe you can connect that way. It's the little envelope next your name top right... She does a great job of posting things like birth weights and such, and has some of the calmest cattle that she can go up to and scratch out in the field when she is taking pictures and doing some videos.

Currently watching one cow preparing to calve... number 2 from my thread actually

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Thank you very much for advice... About Lithuanian farmer, I'll take a time reading her threads, since I'm from Latvia (neighboring country of Lithuania) her threads could be very relatable to our situation.

We really liked our limx dairy and charxdairy cows. Plenty of milk, good calving ability, good moms and raised good calves. Put an good lim on them and you will have good calves and no issues at the calving. Majority of our herd was built from that kind of cows.
Of course, everything depends from the genetics you will use.

 

[AinisR28]

Hi, welcome to the forum! Could I ask which country you are from?
What I have learned during all these years is that the breed doesn't matter much when it comes to calving ease. There are both hard calving and easy calving lines in every breed. We personally stopped using Angus as they caused us more issues at calving heifer than , for example, limousines. Also cows tend to be abit too protective at the calving time and sometimes it causes some issues.
The main question is what do you want to do with your cattle. Do you plan to sell weanlings, raise your own replacements, fatten bulls, etc. What kind of market you have at your country?

Hey, I'm from Latvia. Here Limousine and Charolais breeds sells the best, especially because of local cattle auction house, where best prices always are both for purebred and crosses of limousines and Charolais. So I understand that buying Angus or Hereford heifers and bull goes against current situation of cattle market.
About our plan, I'd say, since we own very limited amount of land, most of them will be sold as a weanlings, couple of best heifers we will keep as a replacements, and maybe few will be kept until age of 1.5-2 years to be sold then.

Answering to your next comment, Yes, we still have good amount of dairy cows, some of them very big Holsteinians and crosses, and we're going to keep them for some time because of their big frame and amount of milk. Only question is what breed of bull use on them. Although it would be easier to find limousine or charolais bull, all the stories we've heard about them being agressive and even attacking farmers here, make me hesitant.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Hey, I'm from Latvia. Here Limousine and Charolais breeds sells the best, especially because of local cattle auction house, where best prices always are both for purebred and crosses of limousines and Charolais. So I understand that buying Angus or Hereford heifers and bull goes against current situation of cattle market.
About our plan, I'd say, since we own very limited amount of land, most of them will be sold as a weanlings, couple of best heifers we will keep as a replacements, and maybe few will be kept until age of 1.5-2 years to be sold then.

Answering to your next comment, Yes, we still have good amount of dairy cows, some of them very big Holsteinians and crosses, and we're going to keep them for some time because of their big frame and amount of milk. Only question is what breed of bull use on them. Although it would be easier to find limousine or charolais bull, all the stories we've heard about them being agressive and even attacking farmers here, make me hesitant.

Charolais in general is a very docile breed. Limousines are abit more lively, but there are plenty docile animals as well. To have docile animals needs some work and time, paired with good genetics. We, in total, had 4 pure lim bulls. None have ever attacked or showed signs of aggresion toward us. One was extremelly well behaved. Any bull is dangerous, so needs to keep that in mind. Really need to know your animals and watch their behaviour. Occasional back or butt scratches are welcome, if bull is okay with that, but usually it's not the best idea to try being really good "friends" all the time. You have to respect their job and space. Only one our bull was worth full trust as I had to milk one cow while she was inheat and she caused more issues than a bull.
Neighbour has a lim bull, which also is a very docile animal.
When selecting bull character has to be number one criterea. A good tempered bull will give you calm offspring. However, you also need to spend time interacting with your animals, getting to know them and building trust.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

One of our lim bulls.

 

[lithuanian farmer]

Also really important thing is culling all undesirable traits. Don't be afraid to cull. Also try to build a herd from best cows, especially character wise when you're just starting

 

[Warren Allison]

Hello!
We have a small farm in Europe and right now we're transitioning from dairy to beef cattle. One of the most important things is to choose the right breed of cattle. Since my father will mostly work with them alone, it's important that they are docile and calving is as easy as possible. So Angus and Hereford breeds seem to be most suitable for that. At the same time here in my country these are not the most popular breeds, so it's going to take quite a long time to build a purebred herd. Charolais and Limousine are much more popular breeds here.
So I wanted to ask You, is it smart to buy a purebred bull of Angus or Hereford breed and cross it not only with Angus or Hereford heifers, but also with Charolais, Limousin or Simmental heifers and cows? Usually when I read about crosses between maternal and terminal types of cattle, it's between maternal cows and terminal bulls, for example Charolais bull on Hereford cows.
How crosses the other way usually work out? I assume that calving should be much more easier using Angus bull on Charolais heifers, than purebred Charolais on Charolais, is it like that in reality? And also how much do crosses like that are going to (I assume negatively) influence weight gain of calves?

I got started fooling with cows, because of my grandaddy, in the 60's Back then, all we had down here in the south were Hereford and Angus, and a big cow was 800 lbs, and only as tall as the waist line of a grown man. Late 60's the first Simmental and Charolais made their way down here, and first to arrive were the bulls. They quickly became known as "pallet-headed cow-killers". Pulling calves and burying cows became routine, when these bulls were bred to the Her. and Ang. cows. Back then, the Simms were the red & whites, like the ones in Europe called Fleckveih. Both breeds were mostly horned. Eventually, as you started seeing more and more Char and Simm cows down here, people learned that if you did it the other way, Ang and Herf bulls to Simm and Char cows, you got polled calves with a lot of hybrid vigor. And, you didn't have calving problems breeding Char to Simm, or SImm to Char. All these crosses did not negatively influence weight gain, it was quite the contrary. Simms were great milkers, and Char had a reputation for growth. Today in America, Chars are for the most part polled, and the bulls are no longer called "pallet-headed cow-killers". Today's Simmental here are a lot different, since breeders turned the herds black. No more cow-killers, most all are polled, and their marbling rivals that of Angus. They may be my favorite bos taurus cows. What type Simms are there in your area? Herf and Angus have long been noted for their docility. Many claim that Herf are the best mothers there is, and Angus can be too good of a mother, especially that 1st week after they calf. A lot of Angus become man-eaters those first few days after calving. I have found, that Char and Simm cows are just as docile as the other 2 breeds. Of course, there are crazy and dangerous individuals in any and all breeds. With you dad going to be doing the calving, if you get any Angus cows, just tell him to leave them be the first week after they calve.

Being in the dairy business I assume you AI? If so, maybe get some cows/heifers of both...Char and Simm? AI your heifers to Ang and Herf, then 2nd calf and on, use Char and Simm. Do some straight Sim and some straight Char, and cross up some to get the Char/Simms. After a time, you will decide what works best for you. Maybe you will decide to keep fooling with all 4 breeds, or eliminate 1 or 2. Ever how many CT members on here, is how many opinions you could get, but you will find the one you form based on what you experience, will be the most valuable. Limousine and Gelbeiv are the 2 I have the least experience or knowledge about, because the few I have fooled with soured me. They were crazy, and/or mean, and/or flighty, or all 3. But then again, I will hear people say that about Brahmas, and Gerts, and I have no more trouble with them, than I do Ang or Herf. How many head of brood cows do you intend to run?