Ungainly/mentally slow newborns

[Debra]

Hi!
I'm new here but definitely not new to cattle.
This past year I used a Red Angus bull on part of my herd, and Black Angus on the other half. I have not had a single bit of difficulty with the calves sired by the black bull. They drop out of the cow, no matter the temperature, they get up and nurse.
Out of the red bull, on the other hand, I've had several "problems".
#1- Calf that froze despite decent temps (in the 20s, born in the barn). I brought him in the house within two hours of birth and have kept him alive. I was happy with his progress...until his hind feet fell off. Above the pastern, mid way to the hock. It's horrible. His ears were nipped too.
#2,3, and 4- Calves born in normal temps that could not figure out where the cow's teats were. I seriously had to catch the cows, who have perfectly normal udders, and shove the calf under. Took 2 days with a particularly stupid one. Two of them had some sort of problem figuring out how to stand. I had to keep righting them b/c they would roll their heads upside down and paddle.
#5- This is the calf my main question is about. He has squinty, weepy eyes and was born stupid. I mean, seriously, if not PC, the calf is retarded. It took 5 days for him to figure out how to suck the cow, despite repeated lessons. The tip of his tongue protrudes from his mouth and he froths all the time because of it. There seems to be something wrong with his joints. It's like his hocks don't flex. His knees do bend but seems like his front pasterns don't either. Now obviously the Red Angus bull has bought his ticket to town, but what do I do with the cow? Sell her now as a pair? She weighs near 1500# and I don't want to carry her through the year with that calf on her. Does anybody know what might be wrong with the calf?
* I feed 22% protein tubs all winter, along with salt and free choice mineral. I don't think it's nutrition as the cows are a touch thin but the calves from the black bull had no problems at all.

 

[Isomade]

Hi!
I'm new here but definitely not new to cattle.
This past year I used a Red Angus bull on part of my herd, and Black Angus on the other half. I have not had a single bit of difficulty with the calves sired by the black bull. They drop out of the cow, no matter the temperature, they get up and nurse.
Out of the red bull, on the other hand, I've had several "problems".
#1- Calf that froze despite decent temps (in the 20s, born in the barn). I brought him in the house within two hours of birth and have kept him alive. I was happy with his progress...until his hind feet fell off. Above the pastern, mid way to the hock. It's horrible. His ears were nipped too.
#2,3, and 4- Calves born in normal temps that could not figure out where the cow's teats were. I seriously had to catch the cows, who have perfectly normal udders, and shove the calf under. Took 2 days with a particularly stupid one. Two of them had some sort of problem figuring out how to stand. I had to keep righting them b/c they would roll their heads upside down and paddle.
#5- This is the calf my main question is about. He has squinty, weepy eyes and was born stupid. I mean, seriously, if not PC, the calf is retarded. It took 5 days for him to figure out how to suck the cow, despite repeated lessons. The tip of his tongue protrudes from his mouth and he froths all the time because of it. There seems to be something wrong with his joints. It's like his hocks don't flex. His knees do bend but seems like his front pasterns don't either. Now obviously the Red Angus bull has bought his ticket to town, but what do I do with the cow? Sell her now as a pair? She weighs near 1500# and I don't want to carry her through the year with that calf on her. Does anybody know what might be wrong with the calf?
* I feed 22% protein tubs all winter, along with salt and free choice mineral. I don't think it's nutrition as the cows are a touch thin but the calves from the black bull had no problems at all.

#1 had nothing to do with the bull
2,3&4 it happens. Some bulls calves aren't as vigorous as others at birth.
#5 sounds like a long birth. This is common in larger calves that spent too much time in the birth canal. Larger born calves tend to be slower at birth. Were the calves out if the red bull larger than those out if the black?

 

[Alan]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but glad to see you back! :tiphat:

 

[Isomade]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but glad to see you back! :tiphat:

Thanks! I never left, just out it on mute for a bit.

 

[Debra]

#1 had nothing to do with the bull <- I would disagree here. I think it goes with calf vigor. If he'd been up and moving like he should have, it wouldn't have been a problem. I've had plenty get their ears, noses, tails, and even hocks/knees nipped. Hind feet falling off is definitely a first.
2,3&4 it happens. Some bulls calves aren't as vigorous as others at birth. <-I'll say.
#5 sounds like a long birth. This is common in larger calves that spent too much time in the birth canal. Larger born calves tend to be slower at birth. Were the calves out if the red bull larger than those out if the black? <-No, but there is tremendous variation in what he throws. I've had everything from 60 to 90+ lbs. out of him. This particular calf weighed 72 lbs, small for what this cow usually has. Last year was an 86 lb. heifer. Something is kind of funny all the way around. His hair is like ultra long and silky, not rough and wirey like most calves. Even the other RA- sired calves are rougher haired.
Adding #6- I had a 40 lb. calf born out of this bull as well. He was not able to rise and nurse. I worked with him for some hours before he died. Good suckle reflex but seemingly unable to swallow.
Also, a bit of weirdness that I was actually happy to see out of this bull: 20/25 calves he has thrown so far have been bulls!
I'm just trying to figure out if this bull throws genetically weak calves. If so, can him and get rid of the problem. If not...disease? Some mineral that's lacking? I know we are short of iodine here. I have to add it to the rest of the mineral supplements or foot abscess is terrible.

 

[cowgirl8]

Nothing worse than a bull that throws problems. We always have at least 2 bulls on a herd so when we do have a mess of problems its hard to tell which guy did it. One year we had 50 heifers bred to 2 LBW angus bulls. One of them put wonky shoulders on the calves, and most were in the 60 pound range and half of them hung up at birth. All i had to do was yank on a leg and they came out. But, if i wasnt there to do that, the calf would just sit with its head out and two even front legs. We got rid of both of those bulls, even though one was a good one.

 

[bmoore87]

I have noticed differences in some of our bulls with similar sized calves as well and how quickly the calf gets going. I wouldn't think its a mineral issue based if its only happening to part of the herd bred to him.

I would lean towards genetics of the bull or hard births. You said the calves aren't any bigger than the black bull but are they stockier? W used 2 bulls that bulls that both threw small calves on heifers this year. One we never had problems with while the others had a broader head and shoulders and we had to pull some calves out of even though they were small.

Either way if it is a strong trend you can see on paper at the end of the season with the bull I would get a different one and not chance it.

 

[Taurus]

Sounds like it's not RA bull's fault.
#1 calf- the bull has nothing do with it. Sounds like the mom does crappy job or just a bad luck.
#2, 3, 4- most large bull calves are not that vigorous for most times.
#5- Sounds like a hard birth
#6- the bull has nothing do with it. Sounds like a premature calf to me so it could be anything that caused this.

 

[jerry27150]

sounds like the bull to me. your choice what to do with the last one. no way to tell if he'll be alright with time or not

 

[Debra]

I assure you, something is majorly not right with this calf #5, much worse than a hard birth. I've had hypoxic calves before, and this just isn't it. #2- Weighed 68 lbs.
#3- Weighed 84 lbs.
#4- Weighed 60 lbs. I don't think it's size.

I'll also try to get a pic of this poor calf so you can see what I mean. His head is too big, he's ewe necked, stands tight in the front and excessively wide in the rear, weird gait when walking.

 

[skeeter swatter]

Did you winter them all together or are they in two groups?
Where are you located?

 

[Nesikep]

I don't think I'd chance using that bull again... with the drastically different results from the two, it just about has to be something about that bull... Might want to let the breeder of it know as well to look out for that.
I have had a few retards around here, but nothing like what you're describing. The cow, well, it doesn't sound like her fault to me, you just have to weigh out how much she costs you to feed, or how much she'll cost you to replace... Around here I often have leftover hay, and cows like that will live in the corral over the summer, as I am short on pasture... I can't do your math for you.