Twins from a heifer

[Zawada Farms]

Hi all, I am new to this site and in need of advice. We bought a bred heifer a couple months ago. She was not wild but not used to us and being at a new farm. We did have to halter her while she was in labor and tie her so we could assist as we saw only one hoof coming. My husband was able to push the calf back and correct the leg postion and first calf was pulled very easily. We did not know there were twins. First calf was 7:30am and second was between 10:00 and 11:00. Interesting enough the calves are two completely different colors. Apparently the first owner had two bulls in with his girls. Both calves reflect the colors of the two bulls. Anyway our heifer wants nothing to do with the calves. She throws them around with her head and slams them against the fence panels. We were forced to make them a pen next to her to keep them safe. We have been also giving them a bottle morning and night while also putting them with mom for 3 supervised visits a day. We have been tying her so she wont injure the calves. When she is not tied she will continue to throw them around. Her udders have never filled up with milk. The calves are switching udders constantly and slamming their heads into her bag. We have increased hay ( alfalfa) and grain intake. She has plenty of water in her trough. Its been 9 days and we have seen NO CHANGE.

 

[Muddy]

Bottle these calves. She doesn't sound like she has enough milk for a single calf, let alone twins.

Just let you know, just because the twins are colored different doesn't mean they have two fathers.

 

[Lazy M]

I've had to rope and tie a heifer twice/day for 3 weeks before she finally took to her calf. She became one of the best and most loving mama cow I've ever seen.

What is the sex of the calves?

 

[shortybreeder]

I'm assuming you got a red and a black calf? They could both be sired by a black bull, if he's a red carrier. I feel like them being separate colors would be enough to warrant an assumption that there would be no freemartin in this case?

 

[Son of Butch]

I'm assuming you got a red and a black calf? They could both be sired by a black bull, if he's a red carrier. I feel like them being separate colors would be enough to warrant an assumption that there would be no freemartin in this case?

Actually odds would increase since we now know they are not identical, therefore 33.3% chance one is male and the other female, 33.3% chance 2 males and 33.3% chance of both being 2 females.

 

[shortybreeder]

I'm assuming you got a red and a black calf? They could both be sired by a black bull, if he's a red carrier. I feel like them being separate colors would be enough to warrant an assumption that there would be no freemartin in this case?

Actually odds would increase since we now know they are not identical, therefore 33.3% chance one is male and the other female, 33.3% chance 2 males and 33.3% chance of both being 2 females.

I thought freemartins were only in identical twins? And that a freemartin was the result of a split male embryo where only the X chromosome was transferred into the freemartin heifer, and as such they were freemartins because they didn't have the second X chromosome. So in this case, since we know they are not identical, if there is a male and female calf, couldn't one assume that the female is not actually a freemartin, but is actually a normal heifer?

Or in an odd case, they could be identical but when the heterozygous black bull embryo split, not all of the genes transferred over, resulting in a twin lacking the Y chromosome and the gene that would code for black, but still had the X chromosome and a gene that codes for red.

 

[Muddy]

Most freemartins have been always be fraternal twins with a male calf. Never in identical twins.

 

[dun]

Freemartins are caused by fluids across the placenta corrupting the heifers chromosomes with bull chromosomes

 

[Son of Butch]

I thought freemartins were only in identical twins?

Come on people...
IF they are identical they both have to be males or they both have to be females.
Boys and girls are not identical no matter what Obama or the Supreme Court says.

 

[shortybreeder]

I thought freemartins were only in identical twins?

Come on people...
IF they are identical they both have to be males or they both have to be females.
Boys and girls are not identical no matter what Obama or the Supreme Court says.

Well it wouldn't be the first incorrect thing my genetics professor taught us... but he's the head of the dairy department, so I assumed he would understand this at least. He explained it as being a male embryo splitting into two embryos, however in the second embryo, there is only a single X chromosome, and for whatever reason the Y chromosome doesn't come over. Hence why you would get male AND female "identical" twins. And the heifer would be a freemartin due to lacking a second X chromosome during critical developmental stages. That's just what I was taught last semester, but I had a few other issues with what he tried to tell us was "fact" in regards to cattle breeding...

 

[bball]

Well it wouldn't be the first incorrect thing my genetics professor taught us... but he's the head of the dairy department, so I assumed he would understand this at least. He explained it as being a male embryo splitting into two embryos, however in the second embryo, there is only a single X chromosome, and for whatever reason the Y chromosome doesn't come over. Hence why you would get male AND female "identical" twins. And the heifer would be a freemartin due to lacking a second X chromosome during critical developmental stages. That's just what I was taught last semester, but I had a few other issues with what he tried to tell us was "fact" in regards to cattle breeding...

Shorty, as soon as the embryo splits, and the Y chromosome doesn't transfer, you no longer have identical twins. Too be identical, must have exactly the same genetic material. Lacking the Y, leaves you with fraternal; same embryo, but different genetic material (one has Y, one does not).

 

[shortybreeder]

Alright, let's not call them identical twins then, but rather just a split embryo. The rest of the idea still stands: that a freemartin heifer would be missing an X chromosome, and originate from a male embryo. Assuming color is not on a sex chromosome, would it be more likely that because a heifer was a different color from a bull that she is not a freemartin?

 

[Son of Butch]

Let's reason this out. About 95% of heifer/bull twin combos result in the heifer being a freemartin.
Which would = 1 out of 20 times the heifer is normal.

There are two causes for twinning and I believe it's about a 60/40 split, with twins resulting from the embryo splitting
the reason for twinning 40% of the time and 60% of the time the twins resulted from female releasing 2 eggs and both
eggs are fertilized.
Even if it were 50/50 causation.... 50% of all heifers born twin with a bull would be normal rather than less than 10%
So, I believe it's a hormone crossover in the fluids across the placenta, which Dun already mentioned, as the reason.

 

[Zawada Farms]

Thanks for the replies everyone. They are in fact a bull and a heifer. I will try and post a picture of them. One is solid brown and the other has Hereford coloring but more orange than red. Which were the same colors as the two bulls that were in with the mom. I'm not saying that she was bred twice I just thought it was interesting.

 

[Zawada Farms]

I cannot for the life of me post a picture of the calves! Why is it so difficult. I did see the instructions

 

[Supa Dexta]

Use this http://postimage.org/

upload and then share with us the link it provides.