Twin heifer a Free Martin?

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Don't be quick to cut. We had a bull/heifer set, heifer was a free martin (it was obvious; her vulva was almost non existent, and she had a large clitoris that stuck out at the bottom, so malformed). Confirmed it with the vet when we weaned the set (he palpated her, she did not have a complete vagina, nor a cervix or any other parts).
The bull, however, was a wonderful looking bull. We sold him for breeding, he passed his BSE with flying colors. He never had a set of twins from his daughters (that we know of, the buyer kept up with us on how his babies looked). If he is a nice bull, do not let the twin factor be the deciding ax for him. Sounds like he has a nice pedigree; I sure love the Antoinette line!

He wouldn;t be expected to throw twins but his daughters would

Sorry Dun, should have clarified that: HIS daughters never had a set of twins. They kept most of his daughters, but not sure how many that was. This was of course, years ago!

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Interesting thread, very informative.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I have a set of bull/heifer twins right now. Out of 18 bull calves, we castrated all but 4, and the twin bull is one we kept intact.
I have a few Ranch Hand daughters in my herd. He obviously should be lighter birth weight being a twin. Give him a little time.

 

[Son of Butch]

Bulls twin to a heifer while normal in all other respects have a higher rate of fertility problems than single birth bulls.

 

[greybeard]

He wouldn;t be expected to throw twins but his daughters would

It would be somewhat difficult to convince me of that..in humans anyway.
My paternal uncle (my father's brother) sired twin boys.
One of the above twins sired twin daughters.
My father sired me and my twin brother.
I sired twin sons.
My daughter gave birth to twin boys.
One of my twin sons sire twin boys (one was stillborn).

 

[Gators Rule]

It would be somewhat difficult to convince me of that..in humans anyway.
My paternal uncle (my father's brother) sired twin boys.
One of the above twins sired twin daughters.
My father sired me and my twin brother.
I sired twin sons.
My daughter sired twin boys.
One of my twin sons sire twin boys (one was stillborn).

I'm certainly sorry to hear that about your grandson passing. We are expecting out first grandchild (adoption) and I can only imagine.

 

[WalnutCrest]

He wouldn;t be expected to throw twins but his daughters would

It would be somewhat difficult to convince me of that..in humans anyway.
My paternal uncle (my father's brother) sired twin boys.
One of the above twins sired twin daughters.
My father sired me and my twin brother.
I sired twin sons.
My daughter sired twin boys.
One of my twin sons sire twin boys (one was stillborn).

Your daughter sired twin boys?

That sounds complicated!

op:

 

[greybeard]

oops--fixed it.

 

[Koffi Babone]

I must have gone to the same school as Ken.

English literature states that Freemartins are chimeras a mix of XX and XY, the French literature states that the females are XX and don't develop normally due to the presence of male hormones...

 

[greatgerts]

Bulls twin to a heifer while normal in all other respects have a higher rate of fertility problems than single birth bulls.

I had a twin bull to a heifer that we kept, and I think in the 5 years of using him for breeding, he had very minimal cows come up open or breed late. The last season we used him, he hit 100% conception. If he would've had a better fertility, I guess he would have been breeding the other herds, or the neighbor's. Maybe it was a good thing he was a twin to a heifer. This was 2 years ago when I had him in for a BSE.

 

[WalnutCrest]

That's a serious bull.

 

[Son of Butch]

That proves it bulls twin to a heifer are the best ever, because everyone knows there is never an exception to a rule.

 

[Son of Butch]

Interesting thread, very informative.

As promised to keep all this good information flowing Near and Far explained by your old pal Grover.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZhEcRrMA-M

 

[greatgerts]

That proves it bulls twin to a heifer are the best ever, because everyone knows there is never an exception to a rule.

Maybe I have not been looking in the right spots, but would you be able to site your findings? I really would like to see if I had just an "exception" bull.

 

[Son of Butch]

That proves it bulls twin to a heifer are the best ever, because everyone knows there is never an exception to a rule.

would you be able to site your findings?

Well you could start here... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11071136

As you will see...
"Several authors state that bulls with blood cell chimerism originating from dizygous twinning are characterized
by decreased fertility."

As a general rule I'd recommend feedlot only for both the heifer and the bull that are born twin to each other.
But to each their own.

 

[greatgerts]

Thanks Butch. Here was the first I had ever heard of it.

 

[farmerjan]

I must have gone to the same school as Ken.

English literature states that Freemartins are chimeras a mix of XX and XY, the French literature states that the females are XX and don't develop normally due to the presence of male hormones...

This is what I also have been taught and one of our vets agreed. Said that is why some of the female twins with a bull, are normal looking but just don't fully develop inside. The male hormones are dominant during development and "over ride" or suppress the female hormones early on. And that is why if the eggs are released from both "sides" that the female is more likely to be good since the developing embryo takes longer to come down the horn and the hormone development is normal for each side. Since I am not there I can only take it for what it is worth and this one dairy is living proof that there are reasons that he has so many "good free martins".

 

[Son of Butch]

Thanks Butch. Here was the first I had ever heard of it.

40 years ago the rule of thumb was: No reason to cull the bull calf born co-twin with a heifer
Today IF the bull passes his BSE that old rule still holds true.

I just think it's easier to feedlot both and I never have to worry about it or wonder what if...
IF he was from a very special mating... then my opinion would be to raise him to BSE and find out.