The Mob, Litter, and Organic Matter ?

[Stocker Steve]

Advocates (and Godfathers) of rapidly improving soil health often do this by accumulating a large amount of forage (and roots), and then use high stock density to trample the majority of this forage to the ground - - forming litter and organic matter. Each time this is done on a paddock the fertility and the amount of forage produced should both go up. Is there any physical limit on how often this practice can go?

 

[Banjo]

To infinity in my estimation. Just watched another one of Allen Savory's videos. The key element of high density grazing is TIME. How long a time the cattle are on a paddock and how long the paddock has to recover.
One cow can overgraze and deteriorate an acre if left on it all summer. But 100 cows on one acre for one day then not returned for a 100 days will vastly improve it.

 

[ram]

The grass won't be worth feeding after a 100 days.

 

[Banjo]

The grass won't be worth feeding after a 100 days.

And you know this how? Please educate us.

 

[ram]

Because I've had my hay and pastures tested for TDN and protein plenty of times. Any grass that hasn't been grazed for 8 weeks will need to be supplemented to meet the needs of a wet cow. It's really simple, all you have to do is have your hay and pastures tested for TDN, and protein.

 

[regolith]

The grass won't be worth feeding after a 100 days.

And you know this how? Please educate us.

Well that depends on time of year and rate of growth/stage of growth. But it's true enough, if your grass plant is reaching maturity (ryegrass reaching it's fourth leaf) in twenty days there is no net growth in the pasture after some 50 - 60 days and quality (palatability and nutrient content) is declining steadily.

Now IME unfertilised ground needs grazed every second rotation to be at about the same stage as the regularly fertilised grazing area. I think that statement in itself should tell you a lot.

 

[regolith]

Advocates (and Godfathers) of rapidly improving soil health often do this by accumulating a large amount of forage (and roots), and then use high stock density to trample the majority of this forage to the ground - - forming litter and organic matter. Each time this is done on a paddock the fertility and the amount of forage produced should both go up. Is there any physical limit on how often this practice can go?

There's no physical limit - as in, I can't see any real detriment in continuing this practice after high organic levels are reached; but at some point there will be declining returns in reward for reaching high organic matter.
My belief - and this is open for discussion as my experience is mostly MIG of already improved pasture - is that once you have the desired results you can maintain the soil profile at less management effort and for better results, by regular rotational grazing of pasture at the optimal stages. Yes, rest periods and avoiding overgrazing are still important, but the end goal is maintenance of your soil/pasture qualities alongside efficient livestock production, not continual forage improvement. And with a different end goal, the means to achieve it may be a little different.

 

[1wlimo]

The grass won't be worth feeding after a 100 days.

That entirely depends on the grasses.

With a good mix of species, and high density grazing grass that looks done, actually performs very well. Not to dairy standards, but will keep beef cows.

 

[1wlimo]

Advocates (and Godfathers) of rapidly improving soil health often do this by accumulating a large amount of forage (and roots), and then use high stock density to trample the majority of this forage to the ground - - forming litter and organic matter. Each time this is done on a paddock the fertility and the amount of forage produced should both go up. Is there any physical limit on how often this practice can go?

There's no physical limit - as in, I can't see any real detriment in continuing this practice after high organic levels are reached; but at some point there will be declining returns in reward for reaching high organic matter.
My belief - and this is open for discussion as my experience is mostly MIG of already improved pasture - is that once you have the desired results you can maintain the soil profile at less management effort and for better results, by regular rotational grazing of pasture at the optimal stages. Yes, rest periods and avoiding overgrazing are still important, but the end goal is maintenance of your soil/pasture qualities alongside efficient livestock production, not continual forage improvement. And with a different end goal, the means to achieve it may be a little different.

There will be the law of diminishing returns. Every time there will be less of a improvement. However the best soils in the world are very high in organic matter and I would think it will take a great number of years to increase the organic matter to these levels.

 

[Dave]

The grass won't be worth feeding after a 100 days.

That entirely depends on the grasses.

With a good mix of species, and high density grazing grass that looks done, actually performs very well. Not to dairy standards, but will keep beef cows.

There are definitely regional difference due to of climate and grass species. But with my cool season grasses, 100 days and you would be just as well off to feed straw because that is what would be there to graze.
However, it does work out on paper and in the field to take 12 inches of vegetative grass down to 4 inches of stubble by grazing 40,000 pounds of animals per acre per day. And with my climate and grass species I can do it again in 28-30 days.

 

[Banjo]

I think most are thinking of new grass growth in the spring and going forward 100 days, fescue probably needs to be grazed before it becomes brown, to delay dormancy.
However, after fescue goes thru that spring flush and heads out it doesn't try to head out again at least not much, so all the growth on fescue is all blades. When fescue breaks dormancy in the fall, it just grows on and on. Right now I am moving my cows slowly thru fescue and what is waiting for me to get to it, is just getting bigger and green as a gourd.

 

[TexasBred]

I think most are thinking of new grass growth in the spring and going forward 100 days, fescue probably needs to be grazed before it becomes brown, to delay dormancy.
However, after fescue goes thru that spring flush and heads out it doesn't try to head out again at least not much, so all the growth on fescue is all blades. When fescue breaks dormancy in the fall, it just grows on and on. Right now I am moving my cows slowly thru fescue and what is waiting for me to get to it, is just getting bigger and green as a gourd.

Many grasses will continue growing and remain very nutritious as long as they are grazed or cut for hay. Once past prime lignin (which is almost totally undigestible) begins developing within the grass and it becomes less and less digestible everyday it is past prime. May be tall and green but sample and test. Don't let appearance fool you.

 

[ddd75]

Because I've had my hay and pastures tested for TDN and protein plenty of times. Any grass that hasn't been grazed for 8 weeks will need to be supplemented to meet the needs of a wet cow. It's really simple, all you have to do is have your hay and pastures tested for TDN, and protein.

hahahahaha.. yup.

I mob grazed 120 head cattle and 150 ewes.. about 30 days rest is the best.. 60 days works especially in the fall time. but i have so many animals and only so much land.. pretty hard to rotate those animals everyday and be able to let everything rest those long periods.

i just rotate about once a week now..

 

[Banjo]

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/grazer/August11_ ... Fescue.php

 

[kenny thomas]

I have stockpiled fescue that I will graze after Christmas that I expect to test 16% or better. I spread urea on it the first week of September and should have earlier but the weather was too dry. It is growing real good now and like Banjo stated it is as green as a gourd. But fescue in the fall is totally different than most grasses.

 

[Post Oak]

If you wait 30 days on Bahia ,much less 100 days,it will be about too tough to eat.

 

[Banjo]

If you wait 30 days on Bahia ,much less 100 days,it will be about too tough to eat.

I guess were talking apples and oranges here. I guess I threw a lot of people into hysteria when I said 100 days ungrazed. I may start out in the spring with 30 day rotations, then go to 50 or 60. Right now I am looking at 120 days to maybe 140 days thru this stockpiled fescue, which is actually stockpiling in the process. All summer long they have just been ignoring it or just eating the top off of it, while consuming the summer grasses and forbs and clovers that's mixed in there too.
If somebody doesn't have much fescue, then its hard to understand how it just gets better from about September onward.
Orchard grass comes close, but its not as good as fescue for winter forage.
When it come to long rotations, I have found that if I have a pasture/paddock that doesn't appear as productive as it should be, if I skip it/ leave it out of the rotation one time it seems to improve it a lot. That gives new seedlings a chance to get established etc. and if it looks like it's not going to be " fit to eat" as some say I can just go in there and clip the top off and it will be fit to eat at the right time I need it.

 

[Stocker Steve]

I guess were talking apples and oranges here. I guess I threw a lot of people into hysteria when I said 100 days ungrazed. I may start out in the spring with 30 day rotations, then go to 50 or 60. Right now I am looking at 120 days to maybe 140 days thru this stockpiled fescue,

Some grazing tall fans promote only grazing a paddock once per year. In our climate, you could graze it once or twice and then stockpile for late fall and early winter. Snow would get too deep most winters to stay on it till spring.
Financially -- you would be replacing some hay feeding with the fescue stockpile (or cover crop), and also getting more of an organic matter increase than you would by grazing it when it is short. Local costs for hay vs. stockpile vary widely and I don't think you can make a broad nation wide recommendation. My current cost for purchased hay less its mineral value, vs. stockpiling improved pastures, are pretty similar. But, much of my ground has grasses that do not stockpile well. I think a lot of it gets into what class of animal you have, your pasture layout, your soil type, and your forage composition...
I got a PM from a guy who said that with his sandy soil he could not sustain more than 5% OM. At the level of fertility he was getting great productivity from native grasses that had succeeded the "improved grasses" he had previously planted. He still liked to keep some well drained ridges (about 20% of his ground) in an alfalfa mix for drought insurance. Otherwise he avoided renovation tillage.

 

[TexasBred]

If you wait 30 days on Bahia ,much less 100 days,it will be about too tough to eat.

I guess were talking apples and oranges here. I guess I threw a lot of people into hysteria when I said 100 days ungrazed. I may start out in the spring with 30 day rotations, then go to 50 or 60. Right now I am looking at 120 days to maybe 140 days thru this stockpiled fescue, which is actually stockpiling in the process. All summer long they have just been ignoring it or just eating the top off of it, while consuming the summer grasses and forbs and clovers that's mixed in there too.
If somebody doesn't have much fescue, then its hard to understand how it just gets better from about September onward.
Orchard grass comes close, but its not as good as fescue for winter forage.
When it come to long rotations, I have found that if I have a pasture/paddock that doesn't appear as productive as it should be, if I skip it/ leave it out of the rotation one time it seems to improve it a lot. That gives new seedlings a chance to get established etc. and if it looks like it's not going to be " fit to eat" as some say I can just go in there and clip the top off and it will be fit to eat at the right time I need it.

"Clipping" is the magic word. You remove the unpalatable and allow them access to the more nutritious new growth.

 

[Banjo]

If you wait 30 days on Bahia ,much less 100 days,it will be about too tough to eat.

I guess were talking apples and oranges here. I guess I threw a lot of people into hysteria when I said 100 days ungrazed. I may start out in the spring with 30 day rotations, then go to 50 or 60. Right now I am looking at 120 days to maybe 140 days thru this stockpiled fescue, which is actually stockpiling in the process. All summer long they have just been ignoring it or just eating the top off of it, while consuming the summer grasses and forbs and clovers that's mixed in there too.
If somebody doesn't have much fescue, then its hard to understand how it just gets better from about September onward.
Orchard grass comes close, but its not as good as fescue for winter forage.
When it come to long rotations, I have found that if I have a pasture/paddock that doesn't appear as productive as it should be, if I skip it/ leave it out of the rotation one time it seems to improve it a lot. That gives new seedlings a chance to get established etc. and if it looks like it's not going to be " fit to eat" as some say I can just go in there and clip the top off and it will be fit to eat at the right time I need it.

"Clipping" is the magic word. You remove the unpalatable and allow them access to the more nutritious new growth.

Yes, however with fescue, you don't have to keep clipping once it goes thru its natural reproduction cycle i.e. heading out around June. Unless you just want to. Fescue would have to be kept very short for cattle to want it much in the summer, which then would hurt its stockpiling ability.
stockpiling fescue really should begin early in the year. Cool weather causes it to break dormancy and start growing again in late summer, but a frost or two or three makes it become palatable again raising the brix dramatically.