The downfall of International Harvester

Help Support CattleToday:

his first day someone probably had to show him what corn looked like when it wasn't in a can at the supermarket.

Jim I went to school with a guy that had never been to a farm. He wanted to know what those big machines were in the fields ( combines ) We told him they canned the green beans that you found in the store. He was still believing this when we graduated. He is probably managing some big outfit now to.
 
Lot's of companies hire CEO's who have no idea about the specific business. I think a lot of the logic is they are bean counters and you can do it anywhere. Leave it to the lower level management people to have the knowledge about the actual products.

I always thought good bosses were the ones that started at the bottom like everybody else and worked their way. That way they get a full understanding of the whole process, the products, where things can be more streamlined etc
 
cfpinz":7d4ibw1x said:
Wife's father has an International deep freeze that was had back when they were rationed out, still works. I've got an IH dozer, keep breaking stuff on it so it's for sale now.

I'd wager a conservative guess that 90% of the companies that go under in our country are not the result of an inferior product, just inferior jacklegs in suits.
My uncle has an IH refrigerator in his cabin that was made in the 40's, still working. I thought most of their tractors were junk however, I still have a IH 464, what a piece of crap.
 
The underlying theme throughout this discussion is greed, on both sides. I believe greed has caused a great divide in this country as witnessed by the elections two years ago. People are fed up with CEO's getting paid 10's of millions of dollars in salaries and bonus' for driving their companies in the ground. Then there are the crooks like Maydolph(sp) who bilked people out of billions and wasn't brought down until the economy went to heII, even after whistle blowers identified him as being crooked. See, everyone was getting rich off him until the house of cards came down. Greed. And unions are demanding their share of the pie for their members who already make lots of money by anyone's standard and benefits well beyond what non-union workers can get. When you have bus drivers making $85/hour, weeks of vacation and sick leave, no cost medical benefits, etc and auto workers making twice that amount, well you start to get a feeling of despair and anger. I know that unions served a purpose many years ago by attempting to bring greedy companies and their management in tow. It didn't work all that well then and doesn't work at all today.

I don't buy from companies like AIG. I know I'm fighting windmills but at least I get some personal satisfaction out of knowing I haven't contributed a single penny to those folks. JMO
 
hayray":1v887sug said:
cfpinz":1v887sug said:
My uncle has an IH refrigerator in his cabin that was made in the 40's, still working. I thought most of their tractors were junk however, I still have a IH 464, what a piece of crap.


That was alot of their problem too.....IH made a TON of stuff. They should have focused on a few areas instead of trying to be into everything.
 
lavacarancher":1d20qj0p said:
The underlying theme throughout this discussion is greed, on both sides. I believe greed has caused a great divide in this country as witnessed by the elections two years ago. People are fed up with CEO's getting paid 10's of millions of dollars in salaries and bonus' for driving their companies in the ground. Then there are the crooks like Maydolph(sp) who bilked people out of billions and wasn't brought down until the economy went to heII, even after whistle blowers identified him as being crooked. See, everyone was getting rich off him until the house of cards came down. Greed. And unions are demanding their share of the pie for their members who already make lots of money by anyone's standard and benefits well beyond what non-union workers can get. When you have bus drivers making $85/hour, weeks of vacation and sick leave, no cost medical benefits, etc and auto workers making twice that amount, well you start to get a feeling of despair and anger. I know that unions served a purpose many years ago by attempting to bring greedy companies and their management in tow. It didn't work all that well then and doesn't work at all today.

I don't buy from companies like AIG. I know I'm fighting windmills but at least I get some personal satisfaction out of knowing I haven't contributed a single penny to those folks. JMO

IMO Unions raised the standard of living for the middle class as we really didn't have one until they came on the scene reading history. We had the have's and have not's.
Also before you get angry at what someone makes you need to look at the economy where they live.
We have several economic areas in this country a livable salary where I live is poverty in Houston.
A livable salary in Houston, I don't know if you could get by in Ca. A 100,000 dollar home here would cost you a million plus in Ca.
 
I looked up the history of IH on Wikipedia and the reference is that the new CEO was actually turning things around at IH but the UAW objected to the cost saving cut backs and so the UAW went on a 6 month strike that the company was never able to recover from and they were forced to sell the farm equipment line to Tennaco.
 
Caustic Burno":1anxkhzk said:
Had companies not operated under the philosphy of kill a man hire another one, kill a horse buy another one the Unions would have never came to be. Started out good versus evil ended up greed versus good. We currently have the standard of living because of the Unions. It brought the countries middle class the highest standard of living in the world producing a quality product, this was halted by the greed of never enough driving companies into the ground.

pretty darn good assessment :clap:
 
Caustic Burno":22zdhtkk said:
lavacarancher":22zdhtkk said:
The underlying theme throughout this discussion is greed, on both sides. I believe greed has caused a great divide in this country as witnessed by the elections two years ago. People are fed up with CEO's getting paid 10's of millions of dollars in salaries and bonus' for driving their companies in the ground. Then there are the crooks like Maydolph(sp) who bilked people out of billions and wasn't brought down until the economy went to heII, even after whistle blowers identified him as being crooked. See, everyone was getting rich off him until the house of cards came down. Greed. And unions are demanding their share of the pie for their members who already make lots of money by anyone's standard and benefits well beyond what non-union workers can get. When you have bus drivers making $85/hour, weeks of vacation and sick leave, no cost medical benefits, etc and auto workers making twice that amount, well you start to get a feeling of despair and anger. I know that unions served a purpose many years ago by attempting to bring greedy companies and their management in tow. It didn't work all that well then and doesn't work at all today.

I don't buy from companies like AIG. I know I'm fighting windmills but at least I get some personal satisfaction out of knowing I haven't contributed a single penny to those folks. JMO

IMO Unions raised the standard of living for the middle class as we really didn't have one until they came on the scene reading history. We had the have's and have not's.
Also before you get angry at what someone makes you need to look at the economy where they live.
We have several economic areas in this country a livable salary where I live is poverty in Houston.
A livable salary in Houston, I don't know if you could get by in Ca. A 100,000 dollar home here would cost you a million plus in Ca.

Yep, you're right, CB. But I don't need for someone to negotiate anything for me. If I don't like what I'm makin' I'll go someplace else. I'll stand on my own two feet and don't need a union for anything. And I don't need AIG, or Maydolf or Enron and I buy from WalMart when it suits me.

I had a first hand look at the unions in action when the plant closed down in Corpus where my Dad worked. They basically told him to go pi$$ up a rope. He didn't have a job and wasn't going to get one either. So much for the AFofl/CIO. I absolutely agree with you about the early days of unions. But they have outlived their usefulness.
 
The government had to bail out AIG as it was cheaper. AIG is one of the largest holder of retirement funds in the country many of these are insured by the PBGC. We would have had to pick up that tab with no chance of repayment. This would have brankrupted the PBGC.
Now you talk about a nightmare let a bunch of elderly lose their income and have to try and reenter the workforce. This would have put millions on the SSI roles. The crime was the mismanagement of funds intrusted to the company. Criminal charges should have been filed with stiff penalities. This mess started with Freddie and Fannie bundling and selling mortage bonds that were junk status for investment grade. That isn't all that was involved.

Not argueing for one side or the other, I can see both sides. I can also see the failures of both.
 
Caustic Burno":1fge69v5 said:
The government had to bail out AIG as it was cheaper. AIG is one of the largest holder of retirement funds in the country many of these are insured by the PBGC. We would have had to pick up that tab with no chance of repayment. This would have brankrupted the PBGC.
Now you talk about a nightmare let a bunch of elderly lose their income and have to try and reenter the workforce. This would have put millions on the SSI roles. The crime was the mismanagement of funds intrusted to the company. Criminal charges should have been filed with stiff penalities. This mess started with Freddie and Fannie bundling and selling mortage bonds that were junk status for investment grade. That isn't all that was involved.

Not argueing for one side or the other, I can see both sides. I can also see the failures of both.

Actually it all started on the local level (Although some of those who originated the loans were huge operations) . Freddie and Fannie buy those bundled loans from local lenders who package them and sell them into the secondary market.
 
Ih made some good tractors, I believe they've made some of the best engines ever built. In my opinion they overlooked some simple things that Deere picked up on. I can drop the worn out seat of a 4020 off at the dealer and it will come back just like it came from the factory. All the other companies when the seat wore out you could sit on a bucket as far as they were concerned. Deere has always been concerned about operator comfort and if you're gonna spend day after day on one that makes a difference. The closed center hydraulics of the Deere were superior. The shifting of the IH was not as good. I like the 2 PTO shaft set up on the IH. I do still love a 1206 all painted up, I thought they were great back then and I still do, but a 4020 was IMHO a better tractor.

Larry
 
The TA (torque amplifier) gave some problems on some of the models but i always thought they were good tractors. They were used a lot around here.
 
I dont know if its the down fall of one company or just the downfall of an industry. Look at the real Case, Oliver, Moline , Allis, Oliver and others. great equipment but in a year or so out of business. Actually Deere and IH were behind the times till the mid 70s and almost everyboy else made better tractors. I remember when IH & Deere sold without hitch pto or power steering. The same time Oliver and Allis offered it all for the same money.

The downfalls wernt quality related.
Now our equipment is designed in Europe and made everywhere no matter the color.
 
well, I'll take the thread topic literally...

this was a 684
IMG_0685.jpg


it is now.. well.. a little different

IMG_0852.jpg




I really think Allis Chalmers was a company that suffered from inferior marketing/too good a product as well
all allis's equipment was well thought out, they had a huge lineup of very specific tractors and implements, and i guess with that diversity came a lot of expenses... we have 2 allis combines (40" swath) and an HD6 crawler.. we'd like some of the D series tractors
 
rdbigfarmboy":11fv2ice said:
I dont know if its the down fall of one company or just the downfall of an industry. Look at the real Case, Oliver, Moline , Allis, Oliver and others. great equipment but in a year or so out of business. Actually Deere and IH were behind the times till the mid 70s and almost everyboy else made better tractors. I remember when IH & Deere sold without hitch pto or power steering. The same time Oliver and Allis offered it all for the same money.

The downfalls wernt quality related.
Now our equipment is designed in Europe and made everywhere no matter the color.

Oliver in it's day was really a tractor ahead of it's time. The old 88's had 6 speed trans, live PTO, 6cylinder engine, steered easy, but as power requirements increased Oliver did not respond, I think 310ci was about as big as they ever put in a row crop tractor.

When the M came out in 38, that was a very modern engine for the time, 5 spd trans, foot clutch, good brakes, just a good old tractor.

Larry
 
I don;t know what models they are but a friend of mine pulls with Olivers, woudln;t think of using anything else. He wins with them too.
 
This is a great topic.

First to answer the question: If you have a real interest in IH history and what really happened, Barbara Marsh's book "A Corporate Tragedy" is a must read. Remember though, that it was written/published in 1984/85 when the whole thing came to an end for IH, so the info was gleaned at the time, and not hindsight of 25 years later. As other posters have noted IH was not the only to disappear as it was known then. They all disappeared as they were known for decades (eg Case, MF, Allis, etc) except for JD.

Some points for you:

- The downfall of IH started right after WWII. They had their hands in too many things even then, and management of the day decided they wanted to be the big boys in construction and took on Cat. They simply didn't have the dollars to fund so many undertakings, let alone take on Cat after WWII. That was a failure and huge loss of dollars that could have better been spent on the ag line.

- IH was into appliances into the 1950's (deep freezes), and finally smartened up and got out of the business as the big stores grew bigger - eg. Sears at the time. IH sold their line to Whirlpool as I recall. Again, they were in it too long and could have used R&D funds much better elsewhere.

- The 560 tractor fiasco of 1958/59 is when IH ag fell behind JD, and was the tipping point. It was a screw up that should never have been allowed to happen, but it did. IH lost many loyal customers to this mess.

- Don't forget that IH owned it's own steel plant, and even 2 great lakes freighters to move ore to it's steel mill. Marsh deals with the steel mill quite extensively in her book and the very serious drain this had on IH, and the terrible loss in trying to shed it in the 1970's which cost them a bundle. This is one aspect of IH that many don't know, forget, or under estimate. Marsh does a great job in explaining the real hit IH took in having it's own steel mill, and how very expensive steel mills became to update.

- Hiring an outside CEO was very silly and noted by other posters. He made some bad calls, but so did the union. Yes there is blame for both sides. However, IH was in such bad shape because of decade-after-decade of bad or late business decisions, that it dug a very deep hole for itself, even before the strike.

- Don't forget that there were a lot of "experts" out there who did not see the 1980-82 recession coming, AND ultra-high interest rates, AND the collapse of the farm economy - the perfect storm. IH had a few of these "experts" and they sincerely believed they could recover from the strike as the economy would continue to grow. They were terribly wrong.......

- Tenneco owned Case, but Case was shadow of it's former self by 1984. By the time of the merger, it was simply into tractors and some tillage (made by Sunflower, not even Case). They were a small player compared to about 1970, when they at least were still a full line ag company. Some still think that IH went bankrupt. It almost did, but made the sale of the ag Division to Tenneco who merged it with Case.

- As for quality, every company had good and bad ones. The 560 was a dog that really hurt IH, until the recall was completed, but by then the damage had been done. I am NOT a JD fan, but one of the best tractors ever built was the 4440.

- I agree with the poster as it applies to AC and Oliver. They had great technologies for their day. The Oliver over/under hydraul-shift was the best powershift technology in it's day in my opinion (and was in production well into the 1980's) and greatly outdid MF, JD, IH, and especially Case! However the IH TA gets maligned a bit more than it should. It was good for it's day, but IH didn't have the money until the 88 series to move away from the TA. The TA should have been dumped by about 1970, but with no money to go to a powershift they didn't. It wasn't until 1981 with the 88 series and the new transmission - they wasted another 10 years and lost customers along the way.

- To this day, JD has the best management - and I am NOT a JD fan at all, and will have nothing green in my yard. However, you have to give credit where credit is due, and JD management is the best. They are the only ones to have survived the 1980's, but that's because after World War II they kept a steady hand and made very good decisions - even to this day. They have a great culture, and their marketing people are the best as well. They truly get marketing and you see JD stuff everywhere. To this day CaseIH is so far behind, as they see marketing items as part of the parts department, not for what it is and can be used for. JD sees it very differently and they are right.

- IH always had the best all around engine for it's day. Power, torque, and fuel efficiency, especially the 400 series. But that's where they dumped the money: Not operator comfort (incl a powershift). JD "got it" very early on, in that they saw driver comfort as key. They were right and were years ahead of their time with operator comfort. It's no coincidence that when IH shed the ag line, they kept the trucks (very profitable) and the engines. Hence we have Navistar today.

Again, great topic!!
 

Latest posts

Top