Terri Schindler-Schiavo
- Thread starter Victoria
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Help Support CattleToday:
A couple pages back I wrote something to the effect:
"Nothing is God's hands"
What I meant to say is "Nothing is out of God's hands" meaning He is always in control. I guess I should preview my messages huh?
Someone mentioned it looked like I was an non-believer, and that is not the case. Just wanted to clarify.
Thanks
"Nothing is God's hands"
What I meant to say is "Nothing is out of God's hands" meaning He is always in control. I guess I should preview my messages huh?
Someone mentioned it looked like I was an non-believer, and that is not the case. Just wanted to clarify.
Thanks
Running Arrow Bill
Well-known member
Me thinks the entire Terry S. thing from day one has been a comedy of errors. IMO if one has to be maintained on artificial means for years...one doesn't "kill them" by removing the artificial devices... that person has been dead. Without the years of tubes, they have been dead. If you want to bring God into it... if he/she wants a person to live without tubes, devices for years, then he/she will let the person live and "have a life"...
When my father died at age of 84 he had been on a respirator for a week. The doctors and our family elected to remove the respirator and see what happened. He died soon after... end of story. We didn't "kill" him... just let God do his/her thing...
When my father died at age of 84 he had been on a respirator for a week. The doctors and our family elected to remove the respirator and see what happened. He died soon after... end of story. We didn't "kill" him... just let God do his/her thing...
ollie
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Interesting to find Bill that your logic is similiar to those holding the Salem Witch Trials. They through the suspected witches in the water, bound hand and foot. It they floated or made it out alive that proved they were witches and deserved death which they promptly would administer. If they sank , they were absolved of their sin. Or something like that.Running Arrow Bill":8hzkv9nd said:
greenwillowherefords
Well-known member
Cattle Rack Rancher":2kb1oxkt said:
Last I knew, he would not allow an autopsy, and intended to have her cremated.
Vicky the vet
Well-known member
Last Updated: Tuesday, March 29, 10:30 AM ESTgreenwillowherefords":1yj8c0pj said:
Attorney: Terri Schiavo to Have Autopsy
By RON WORD, AP ONLINE
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (AP) - An autopsy will be performed after Terri Schiavo dies to show the extent of her brain damage, her husband's attorney says.
On Monday, Schiavo's 11th day without food or water, supporters of prolonging the woman's life carried their protests to the White House, while the husband's attorney said she looked "peaceful" and had a stuffed toy cat under her arm.
George Felos, the attorney for husband and guardian Michael Schiavo, said Monday that the chief medical examiner for Pinellas County, Dr. John Thogmartin, had agreed to perform an autopsy.
He said her husband wants definitive proof showing the extent of her brain damage. Michael Schiavo contends his wife told him years ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially under such circumstances.
An attorney for Schiavo's parents, David Gibbs III, said her family also wants an autopsy. "We would certainly support and encourage an autopsy to be done, with all the unanswered questions," Gibbs said.
Felos said he had visited Schiavo for more than an hour Monday and said she looked "very peaceful. She looked calm."
"I saw no evidence of any bodily discomfort whatsoever," Felos said, although he added her breathing seemed "a little on the rapid side" and her eyes were sunken.
Doctors said Terri Schiavo, 41, would probably die within a week or two when the tube was removed on March 18. She suffered catastrophic brain damage in 1990 when her heart stopped for several minutes because of a chemical imbalance.
The parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, pressed again for President Bush, Congress and the president's brother, Gov. Jeb Bush, to intervene to have the feeding tube reinserted. A small group of supporters protested outside the White House gates.
At the invitation of Schiavo's parents, the Rev. Jesse Jackson visited the hospice Tuesday to pray with them.
"I feel so passionate about this injustice being done, how unnecessary it is to deny her a feeding tube, water, not even ice to be used for her parched lips," Jackson said. "This is a moral issue and it transcends politics and family disputes." Jackson had issued a statement calling for those calling for the tube's reinsertion to use "this same passion" to combat hunger and starvation worldwide.
Bob Schindler repeated his plea that she be kept alive by having her feeding tube reinserted. About 100 protesters used harsh rhetoric and some in the crowd mimicked Nazi soldiers by goose-stepping in front of police. Another eight protesters who tried to bring water into the hospice for Schiavo were arrested for trespassing, bringing the 10-day total of arrests to 46.
"She's still communicating, she's still responding. She's emaciated, but she's responsive," Schindler told reporters after a visit with his daughter, saying that she showed facial expressions when he hugged and kissed her.
As Schiavo drew closer to death, extra police officers blocked the road in front of the Florida hospice, and an elementary school next door was closed so students could avoid the crowd.
President Bush's aides have said they have run out of legal options.
At least two more appeals filed by the state seeking the feeding tube's reconnection were pending, but those challenges were before a Florida appeals court that had rejected the governor's previous efforts in the case.
03/29/05 10:30 EST
Victoria
Well-known member
Good morning Cattle Rack Rancher - the parents also want an autopsy done.
I agree that it is morbid, actually I think it is sickening that they are allowing this woman to starve to death. I agree also that if you are going to allow murder then a shot is more humane. I just don't the murder of this woman should have been allowed in any form.
I agree that it is morbid, actually I think it is sickening that they are allowing this woman to starve to death. I agree also that if you are going to allow murder then a shot is more humane. I just don't the murder of this woman should have been allowed in any form.
Victoria
Well-known member
Running Arrow Bill":2e3vs0is said:
Running Arrow Bill I am sorry about your father, it can be a tough decision to remove a respirator. When my grandfather was dying they told us he wouldn't make it through the day without one and we elected to not have it put in at all. Putting someone on a respirator and having someone being fed by a tube is very different. My grandfather didn't make it through half an hour, your father probably didn't last too long either. This poor woman has been alive for nearly two weeks. If you tied down my arms so that I was unable to feed myself I would die too. This woman can breathe on her own, her heart can beat on its' own she is just unable to feed herself.
Victoria
Well-known member
I found the timeline at the bottom interesting...
What You Need to Know about Terri Schiavo
March 7, 2005
by Carrie Gordon Earll
Terri Schiavo's fight for life has been widely publicized in the media but do you know the facts?
Terri Schindler Schiavo is a 41-year old disabled Florida woman at the center of an on-going legal despite between her estranged husband, Michael, and her parents.
In 1990 at 26-years of age, Terri collapsed in her home when her heart temporarily stopped, cutting off oxygen to her brain and leaving her severely brain damaged.
Terri is not dying or terminally ill; she is not brain-dead or in a coma. She is an otherwise healthy mentally disabled woman. The diagnosis that she is in a "vegetative state" is disputed by many medical experts, including neurologists. Some neurologists believe it's possible that Terri is in a "minimally conscious state" (MCS)— a neurological diagnostic criteria first defined in 2002. 1 Researchers are beginning to test this criteria against that of "persistent vegetative state" (PVS) with other patients. 2
Terri breathes on her own without the aid of a ventilator. Her only dependency is on a feeding tube into her stomach for liquids and nourishment. 3 She swallows her own saliva, a fact that leads some experts in speech pathology to believe that with sufficient time and therapy, she could regain her ability to swallow fluids by mouth. 4 As recently as 1997, nursing staff who cared for Terri testified that she could swallow fluids and Jello-O, follow people with her eyes and even speak. 5
An attorney for Terri's parents, Barbara Weller, has posted narratives on the Internet describing her recent visits with Terri. During these visits, Weller witnessed purposeful interaction between Terri, her parents and other visitors. 6
At the time of her collapse, Terri did not have a written advance medical directive. Since her disability, medical decisions have been made by her husband, Michael Schiavo.
Michael Schiavo won a medical malpractice case on Terri's behalf in 1992, pledging to use the money for Terri's rehabilitation and care for the rest of her natural life. 7 The court awarded more than $1 million: $300,000 directly to Michael for his loss and additionally, more than $700,000 for Terri's care. 8 Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, claim that prior to the settlement a neurologist recommended progressive therapy for Terri and that Michael agreed to provide such therapy, only to deny it and confine Terri to a nursing home after receiving the jury award. 9
It was after the settlement that Michael first claimed that Terri had previously stated that she didn't want to be kept alive by artificial means — a statement he never mentioned during the malpractice trial. 10
As guardian, Michael Schiavo controls the $700,000-plus trust fund awarded for Terri's care. 11 As of fall of 2003, Michael Schiavo's attorneys reported that the trust fund was down to $50,000, with more than $430,000 going to "pay for court costs associated with her husband's legal battle to remove his wife's feeding tube." 12 Meanwhile, Medicaid helps to pay Terri's $5,000-a-month nursing costs at a hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida. 13
Since 1995, Michael Schiavo has lived with a girlfriend, Jodi Centonze, with whom he has two children. 14 Michael remains legally married to Terri, as well as her guardian.
In 1998, Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to have Terri's feeding tube removed.
Terri's parents have offered to take care of Terri at their own expense, allowing Michael to keep all money remaining in the trust fund. To date, Michael Schiavo has refused, insisting that Terri die from dehydration.
Florida Sixth Judicial Circuit Judge George Greer has set Friday, March 18 at 1:00 p.m. EST as "date and time" certain to remove Terri's feeding tube — an act that will cause the painful death of an otherwise healthy disabled person whose body processes and benefits from the nutrients and fluids she receives daily.
TIMELINE: 15
On February 25, 1990, 26-year old Terri Schindler Schiavo collapsed in her home when her heart temporarily stopped, cutting off oxygen to her brain and leaving her severely brain injured.
In November 1992, her husband, Michael, won a medical malpractice lawsuit after claiming that doctors failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance that caused the heart attack. The court awarded approximately $1 million in damages with $300,000 to Michael for his loss and another $700,000 to Michael for Terri's guardianship and care.
In July 1993, Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, petition the court to have Michael removed as Terri's guardian — a request that is denied in August 2001.
In May 1998, Michael Schiavo petitions the court to have Terri's feeding tube removed, claiming that Terri told him that she did not want life-sustaining intervention in the event of her incapacitation.
In February 2000, Florida Circuit Judge George W. Greer rules that the feeding tube can be removed.
After several court appeals, it is removed on April 24, 2001. Two days later, Florida Circuit Judge Frank Quesada orders doctors to reinsert Terri's feeding tube.
In October, 2001, the Florida 2nd District Court of Appeals indefinitely delays the removal of Terri's feeding tube pending the examination of Terri by five physicians: two selected by Michael, two by the Schindler's and one by the court. The two doctors selected by Terri's parents tell the court that she can recover; the remaining three stated that she is in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The following month, Judge Greer again orders the feeding tube to be removed again. More court appeals follow.
On October 15, 2003, Terri's feeding tube is removed for a second time.
October 20-21, 2003: the Florida State Legislature passed legislation (dubbed "Terri's Law") allowing Governor Jeb Bush to intervene, ordering the reinsertion of Terri's feeding tube — six days after it was removed.
May 6, 2004 — January 24, 2005: Various courts, including the Florida Supreme Court, strike down "Terri's Law" as unconstitutional; the U.S. Supreme Court refuses to hear the case.
March 2005: Members of the U.S. Congress and the Florida State Legislature introduce legislation to intervene on behalf of Terri and other medically vulnerable patients.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Affidavit of Neurologist Beatrice C. Engstrand, M.D., March 3, 2005; Affidavit of Neurologist Jacob Green, M.D., February 22, 2005; Affidavit of Neurologist Lawrence Huntoon, M.D., March 3, 2005. Affidavits may be accessed on-line at http://www.terrisfight.org
2 J.T. Giacino, et al., "The minimally conscious state: Definition and diagnostic criteria," Neurology, February 2002; 58: 349-353; Melanie Boly, et al., "Auditory Processing in Severely Brain Injured Patients," Archives of Neurology, February 2004, 61:233-238.
3Abby Goodnough, "Governor of Florida orders woman fed in right-to-die case," The New York Times, October 22, 2003.
4Affidavit of Speech Language Pathologist Sarah Green Mele, July 25, 2003; Affidavit of Carolyn Heron, M.D., March 3, 2005; Affidavit of Neurologist Beatrice C. Engstrand, M.D., March 3, 2005; Affidavit of Speech and Language Pathologist Jill Joyce, PhD, March 3, 2005. Some affidavits may be accessed on-line at http://www.terrisfight.org
5Affidavits of Certified Nursing Assistant Heidi Law, September 1, 2003; Registered Nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, September 1, 2003.
6Narrative by Barbara Weller on visit with Terri December 24, 2004, accessed on March 1, 2005 at http://www.terrisfight.org/press/BJWnarrative.html; Narrative by Barbara Weller on visit with Terri February 24, 2005, accessed on February 25, 2005 at http://www.alliancealert.org/2005/20050225.htm
7Vickie Chachere, "Michael Schiavo says money, activists motivate in-laws," Associated Press, October 28, 2003.
8Patrick Kampert, "Parents or husband: Who decides?; Courts to choose victor in battle over woman's life," Chicago Tribune, October 12, 2003.
9Interview with Robert and Mary Schindler, Larry King Live, September 27, 2004.
10Kampert, Associated Press.
11Hugo Kugiya, "Decision for Death; Florida woman's feeding tube pulled after court okays action, Newsday, October 16, 2003.
12William R. Levesque, "Schiavo's husband says he'll fight back," St. Petersburg Times, October 24, 2003; Chris Gray, "Both sides in Schiavo fight point to control of money," Philadelphia Inquirer, October 29, 2003.
13Mary McFachlin, "Schiavo case a growing legal, moral morass," Palm Beach Post, October 26, 2003; Levesque, St. Petersburg Times.
14Rich McKay and Maya Bell, "How to deal with Terri Schiavo's tragedy splits family," Orlando Sentinel, October 26, 2003; Warren Richey, "Can state intervene in medical decisions?" Christian Science Monitor, August 3, 2004.
15With assistance from "Key Dates in the life of Terri Schiavo," Associated Press, January 24, 2005.
What You Need to Know about Terri Schiavo
March 7, 2005
by Carrie Gordon Earll
Terri Schiavo's fight for life has been widely publicized in the media but do you know the facts?
Terri Schindler Schiavo is a 41-year old disabled Florida woman at the center of an on-going legal despite between her estranged husband, Michael, and her parents.
In 1990 at 26-years of age, Terri collapsed in her home when her heart temporarily stopped, cutting off oxygen to her brain and leaving her severely brain damaged.
Terri is not dying or terminally ill; she is not brain-dead or in a coma. She is an otherwise healthy mentally disabled woman. The diagnosis that she is in a "vegetative state" is disputed by many medical experts, including neurologists. Some neurologists believe it's possible that Terri is in a "minimally conscious state" (MCS)— a neurological diagnostic criteria first defined in 2002. 1 Researchers are beginning to test this criteria against that of "persistent vegetative state" (PVS) with other patients. 2
Terri breathes on her own without the aid of a ventilator. Her only dependency is on a feeding tube into her stomach for liquids and nourishment. 3 She swallows her own saliva, a fact that leads some experts in speech pathology to believe that with sufficient time and therapy, she could regain her ability to swallow fluids by mouth. 4 As recently as 1997, nursing staff who cared for Terri testified that she could swallow fluids and Jello-O, follow people with her eyes and even speak. 5
An attorney for Terri's parents, Barbara Weller, has posted narratives on the Internet describing her recent visits with Terri. During these visits, Weller witnessed purposeful interaction between Terri, her parents and other visitors. 6
At the time of her collapse, Terri did not have a written advance medical directive. Since her disability, medical decisions have been made by her husband, Michael Schiavo.
Michael Schiavo won a medical malpractice case on Terri's behalf in 1992, pledging to use the money for Terri's rehabilitation and care for the rest of her natural life. 7 The court awarded more than $1 million: $300,000 directly to Michael for his loss and additionally, more than $700,000 for Terri's care. 8 Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, claim that prior to the settlement a neurologist recommended progressive therapy for Terri and that Michael agreed to provide such therapy, only to deny it and confine Terri to a nursing home after receiving the jury award. 9
It was after the settlement that Michael first claimed that Terri had previously stated that she didn't want to be kept alive by artificial means — a statement he never mentioned during the malpractice trial. 10
As guardian, Michael Schiavo controls the $700,000-plus trust fund awarded for Terri's care. 11 As of fall of 2003, Michael Schiavo's attorneys reported that the trust fund was down to $50,000, with more than $430,000 going to "pay for court costs associated with her husband's legal battle to remove his wife's feeding tube." 12 Meanwhile, Medicaid helps to pay Terri's $5,000-a-month nursing costs at a hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida. 13
Since 1995, Michael Schiavo has lived with a girlfriend, Jodi Centonze, with whom he has two children. 14 Michael remains legally married to Terri, as well as her guardian.
In 1998, Michael Schiavo petitioned the court to have Terri's feeding tube removed.
Terri's parents have offered to take care of Terri at their own expense, allowing Michael to keep all money remaining in the trust fund. To date, Michael Schiavo has refused, insisting that Terri die from dehydration.
Florida Sixth Judicial Circuit Judge George Greer has set Friday, March 18 at 1:00 p.m. EST as "date and time" certain to remove Terri's feeding tube — an act that will cause the painful death of an otherwise healthy disabled person whose body processes and benefits from the nutrients and fluids she receives daily.
TIMELINE: 15
On February 25, 1990, 26-year old Terri Schindler Schiavo collapsed in her home when her heart temporarily stopped, cutting off oxygen to her brain and leaving her severely brain injured.
In November 1992, her husband, Michael, won a medical malpractice lawsuit after claiming that doctors failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance that caused the heart attack. The court awarded approximately $1 million in damages with $300,000 to Michael for his loss and another $700,000 to Michael for Terri's guardianship and care.
In July 1993, Terri's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, petition the court to have Michael removed as Terri's guardian — a request that is denied in August 2001.
In May 1998, Michael Schiavo petitions the court to have Terri's feeding tube removed, claiming that Terri told him that she did not want life-sustaining intervention in the event of her incapacitation.
In February 2000, Florida Circuit Judge George W. Greer rules that the feeding tube can be removed.
After several court appeals, it is removed on April 24, 2001. Two days later, Florida Circuit Judge Frank Quesada orders doctors to reinsert Terri's feeding tube.
In October, 2001, the Florida 2nd District Court of Appeals indefinitely delays the removal of Terri's feeding tube pending the examination of Terri by five physicians: two selected by Michael, two by the Schindler's and one by the court. The two doctors selected by Terri's parents tell the court that she can recover; the remaining three stated that she is in a vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The following month, Judge Greer again orders the feeding tube to be removed again. More court appeals follow.
On October 15, 2003, Terri's feeding tube is removed for a second time.
October 20-21, 2003: the Florida State Legislature passed legislation (dubbed "Terri's Law") allowing Governor Jeb Bush to intervene, ordering the reinsertion of Terri's feeding tube — six days after it was removed.
May 6, 2004 — January 24, 2005: Various courts, including the Florida Supreme Court, strike down "Terri's Law" as unconstitutional; the U.S. Supreme Court refuses to hear the case.
March 2005: Members of the U.S. Congress and the Florida State Legislature introduce legislation to intervene on behalf of Terri and other medically vulnerable patients.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Affidavit of Neurologist Beatrice C. Engstrand, M.D., March 3, 2005; Affidavit of Neurologist Jacob Green, M.D., February 22, 2005; Affidavit of Neurologist Lawrence Huntoon, M.D., March 3, 2005. Affidavits may be accessed on-line at http://www.terrisfight.org
2 J.T. Giacino, et al., "The minimally conscious state: Definition and diagnostic criteria," Neurology, February 2002; 58: 349-353; Melanie Boly, et al., "Auditory Processing in Severely Brain Injured Patients," Archives of Neurology, February 2004, 61:233-238.
3Abby Goodnough, "Governor of Florida orders woman fed in right-to-die case," The New York Times, October 22, 2003.
4Affidavit of Speech Language Pathologist Sarah Green Mele, July 25, 2003; Affidavit of Carolyn Heron, M.D., March 3, 2005; Affidavit of Neurologist Beatrice C. Engstrand, M.D., March 3, 2005; Affidavit of Speech and Language Pathologist Jill Joyce, PhD, March 3, 2005. Some affidavits may be accessed on-line at http://www.terrisfight.org
5Affidavits of Certified Nursing Assistant Heidi Law, September 1, 2003; Registered Nurse Carla Sauer Iyer, September 1, 2003.
6Narrative by Barbara Weller on visit with Terri December 24, 2004, accessed on March 1, 2005 at http://www.terrisfight.org/press/BJWnarrative.html; Narrative by Barbara Weller on visit with Terri February 24, 2005, accessed on February 25, 2005 at http://www.alliancealert.org/2005/20050225.htm
7Vickie Chachere, "Michael Schiavo says money, activists motivate in-laws," Associated Press, October 28, 2003.
8Patrick Kampert, "Parents or husband: Who decides?; Courts to choose victor in battle over woman's life," Chicago Tribune, October 12, 2003.
9Interview with Robert and Mary Schindler, Larry King Live, September 27, 2004.
10Kampert, Associated Press.
11Hugo Kugiya, "Decision for Death; Florida woman's feeding tube pulled after court okays action, Newsday, October 16, 2003.
12William R. Levesque, "Schiavo's husband says he'll fight back," St. Petersburg Times, October 24, 2003; Chris Gray, "Both sides in Schiavo fight point to control of money," Philadelphia Inquirer, October 29, 2003.
13Mary McFachlin, "Schiavo case a growing legal, moral morass," Palm Beach Post, October 26, 2003; Levesque, St. Petersburg Times.
14Rich McKay and Maya Bell, "How to deal with Terri Schiavo's tragedy splits family," Orlando Sentinel, October 26, 2003; Warren Richey, "Can state intervene in medical decisions?" Christian Science Monitor, August 3, 2004.
15With assistance from "Key Dates in the life of Terri Schiavo," Associated Press, January 24, 2005.
Cattle Rack Rancher
Well-known member
I guess I look at it from my own perspective. I don't have a living will. I imagine that when this thing started with her fifteen years ago, a living will was probably hardly even heard of and the farthest thing from her mind. To me, being in a state where I couldn't even take care of my own basic needs would be the worst kind of hell. I would have to trust my wife and kids to make sure I didn't suffer in this situation for long. My parents are nice people but I certainly would think my wife would know what to do better than they would and so I've got to side with Terry's spouse and believe that he is doing what he thinks she would want.
MULDOON
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Wow , I won't evan pretend to act like I know all the facts in this circus.
I , have to agree with the husband, when they became husband and wife , her parents are not her partners , he is.
I don't know all the facts , but I do have some questions:
Someone said he should just divorce her, Don't both parties have to agree to divorce?
Some where I read a line that said she responded to family members.
If she can respond then why don't they ask her , if she wants to live?
Strap her to a polygraph machine and ask her if she wants to live, if the polygraph spikes it means she can understand the question, atleast we'll know she's not a vegtable,the other side of the coin is she may be understanding the question and saying Yes! please put me out of this misery!
I , have to agree with the husband, when they became husband and wife , her parents are not her partners , he is.
I don't know all the facts , but I do have some questions:
Someone said he should just divorce her, Don't both parties have to agree to divorce?
Some where I read a line that said she responded to family members.
If she can respond then why don't they ask her , if she wants to live?
Strap her to a polygraph machine and ask her if she wants to live, if the polygraph spikes it means she can understand the question, atleast we'll know she's not a vegtable,the other side of the coin is she may be understanding the question and saying Yes! please put me out of this misery!
Victoria
Well-known member
Cattle Rack Rancher":2yqneiua said:
I don't understand why a man who has a girlfriend that he lives with and two children is given the right to still be her husband. Seems to me he broke the marriage contract.
Lots of people "step out" on their healthy, able bodied spouses - that doesn't automatically terminate the marriage and their rights. And then the unfaithful spouse is still entitled to rights and properties if the faithful spouse files for divorce. That is a moral issue and not a legal issue.
Victoria
Well-known member
Farmhand - all laws are someone's morality.
CRR, if it makes any difference, I agree with you. For those opposed to the situation, have you considered the possibility that maybe God wanted to take Terri 15 years ago and medical technology intervened and prevented it? As far as her "lowlife husband" is concerned, just maybe he is trying to do what she wanted and that is why he doesn't divorce her and walk away.
Victoria
Well-known member
Farmhand":23ryiiuh said:
Very true and I think that we need people with different morality making up these laws.
dun":2srjf15u said:
That's what elections are for. You did vote in the last one didn't you?
dun[/quote]
dun, if you'll notice, Victoria is from Southern Alberta Canada, so she can't vote in our elections.. She may can vote in Canadian elections but that doesn't do amy good here.
la4angus":lw9qdht0 said:
dun, if you'll notice, Victoria is from Southern Alberta Canada, so she can't vote in our elections.. She may can vote in Canadian elections but that doesn't do amy good here.[/quote]
I realize where she's from. But I would think that when she talks about people with different moralitys making up the laws she was referring to her own country as well as the US. Better to start trying to fix the problems at home rather then starting somewhere else.
dun
