Strong back thick Top Question

[Dixie2542]

With the chase in angus for marble or fancy #'s it seems to me there are a lot of bulls that are missing some looks of what I think makes a bull look like a real bull. What happened to the muscle, good bone, thick neck, rump, and a strong thick top line? Want to AI to proven bulls but still semi-up to date and im fishing for some ideas and experience on here. Who has had experience in succeeding in getting thick topped strong angus offspring with good fertility? Trying to create our next cleanup bull and keep our good feet. Thoughts?

 

[wbvs58]

I think any of the bulls from the Coleman Charlo Blackcap May 4136 flush will do that for you.

Ken

 

[Son of Butch]

I Want to AI to proven bulls... to create thick topped strong angus with good fertility and good feet. Thoughts?

I would start by using the epd search on the aaa website for the traits you desire and reading the pedigrees of those animals. Then locate and view photos from the AI studs to select the bulls with the phenotype you desire.

ie
fertility
SC is .48 heritable and breed average is +.78
HP is only .15 heritable (85% environment) and breed average is +11.2

Feet
Foot Angle is .25 heritable & breed average is .49
Claw .25 heritable & breed average is .50

PAP .39 heritable & breed average is +1.16 the lower the number the better.
I believe that Pulmonary Arterial Pressure correlates to having enough chest width for the heart & lungs to function properly.

p.s.
Tall & Narrow seem to go together as does Short & Wide and calving ease sires often lack width, CED breed average is +6 so odds are you'll select +5 or less.
Happy hunting.

 

[Dsth]

when I select my AI bulls, the first thing I do is look through the sire directory to find the build and phenotype I like. second I compare the EPDs for traits that are important to me. next I try to find videos of the bulls that I have selected. last thing is price compare. seems like a majority of the AI studs are loaded with CE sires, so if you want to stay away from easy calving bulls, you may be passing up some very nice bulls that meet your other wants. hard to beat a nice relaxing winter night looking and reading through your favorite AI directory. good luck

 

[Dixie2542]

I asked wrong.. a few years back we got burned using an ai bull that produced bad feet. Culled them all. - So this is more about who has had real world actual experience with bulls that throw some added thickness on the top line or who have you seen with very thick offspring? Have the process of eliminating down but looking through the mags sometimes doesn't get you what your trying to achieve.

Ken have you had experience with the Charlo sons knocking off height/size like he does? Shorting some ok but thr ones I saw at a sale once were significantly smaller so maybe one gen out?

D

 

[Dixie2542]

I asked wrong.. a few years back we got burned using an ai bull that produced bad feet. Culled them all. - So this is more about who has had real world actual experience with bulls that throw some added thickness on the top line or who have you seen with very thick offspring? Have the process of eliminating down but looking through the mags sometimes doesn't get you what your trying to achieve. Though Dsth you are right. Its good to sit still long enough to enjoy some coffee and check out whats offered.

Ken have you had experience with the Charlo sons knocking off height/size like he does? Shorting some ok but thr ones I saw at a sale once were significantly smaller so maybe one gen out?

D

 

[Stocker Steve]

Ken have you had experience with the Charlo sons knocking off height/size like he does? Shorting some ok but thr ones I saw at a sale once were significantly smaller so maybe one gen out?

D

Some AI studs are calling bulls with 1400 to 1500 lb yearling weights "moderate". How small do you want them?

 

[Ebenezer]

Don't hesitate to go backwards. EPDs favor newer bulls. Some of the old bulls are excellent if you study up. And they have not been through the selection pressure of the latest dozen fads of the AAA. The old guys were likely better students of their cattle.

If a herd or breed selects for high marbling then expect a Wagyu type look. Selection pressure is just that. You cannot have a bulldog and a poodle in the same dog.

 

[Son of Butch]

If a herd or breed selects for high marbling then expect a Wagyu type look.

true

You cannot have a bulldog and a poodle in the same dog.

Bulldoodle or poo-dog lol

 

[wbvs58]

I asked wrong.. a few years back we got burned using an ai bull that produced bad feet. Culled them all. - So this is more about who has had real world actual experience with bulls that throw some added thickness on the top line or who have you seen with very thick offspring? Have the process of eliminating down but looking through the mags sometimes doesn't get you what your trying to achieve. Though Dsth you are right. Its good to sit still long enough to enjoy some coffee and check out whats offered.

Ken have you had experience with the Charlo sons knocking off height/size like he does? Shorting some ok but thr ones I saw at a sale once were significantly smaller so maybe one gen out?

D

I've used SAV Rainmaster, I didn't notice knocking much off the height, a couple of bulls maybe but certainly made up for it in the body and one was my heaviest when selling them at about 15mths, they were such easy doers. A couple of heifers I have which should be in calf now would be in the top half height wise of the 8 heifers I have retained. I only have small numbers but what I have seen I like them. I will probably get 8 straws of Rainmaster for next year for any cow I think needs a bit of thickening up.

Ken

 

[gizmom]

With the chase in angus for marble or fancy #'s it seems to me there are a lot of bulls that are missing some looks of what I think makes a bull look like a real bull. What happened to the muscle, good bone, thick neck, rump, and a strong thick top line? Want to AI to proven bulls but still semi-up to date and im fishing for some ideas and experience on here. Who has had experience in succeeding in getting thick topped strong angus offspring with good fertility? Trying to create our next cleanup bull and keep our good feet. Thoughts?

I confess if a bull has super high carcass numbers I automatically think narrow made pencil gutted. I know there are some decent high dollar beef bulls somewhere but so far I haven’t found one that will give me the phenotype I want. I have come to the conclusion that if I wanted to breed to an ugly bull I might as well go all the way and breed to a dang Waygu. If you are looking for muscle look at some of the Schaff or Coleman bulls they don’t have big carcass numbers but they have a ton of red meat in what they offer. Charlo is the bull that to date is my go to for muscle but he can knock you down as far as frame. we Just took yearling weights on our heifer pen and a Charlo is the heaviest of the group she is moderately framed but wide and deep, another bonus with Charlo is udder and feet and his daughters just work, and his sons are the first to sell.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Charlo is the bull that to date is my go to for muscle but he can knock you down as far as frame. we Just took yearling weights on our heifer pen and a Charlo is the heaviest of the group she is moderately framed but wide and deep, another bonus with Charlo is udder and feet and his daughters just work, and his sons are the first to sell.

Have you used any of his sons?

 

[gizmom]

Have you used any of his sons?

Yes Rainfall, President, Raindance, Reign the Reign are batt ass crazy, the Raindance can be flighty at This point my picks are President and Rainfall.

 

[anewcomer]

Yes Rainfall, President, Raindance, Reign the Reign are batt ass crazy, the Raindance can be flighty at This point my picks are President and Rainfall.

If gizmom tells you a rabbit can pull a plow, hitch him up!!!

 

[gizmom]

If gizmom tells you a rabbit can pull a plow, hitch him up!!!

This is a bull we will use pretty heavy this year he is the phenotype I love.

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

I confess if a bull has super high carcass numbers I automatically think narrow made pencil gutted. I know there are some decent high dollar beef bulls somewhere but so far I haven’t found one that will give me the phenotype I want. I have come to the conclusion that if I wanted to breed to an ugly bull I might as well go all the way and breed to a dang Waygu. If you are looking for muscle look at some of the Schaff or Coleman bulls they don’t have big carcass numbers but they have a ton of red meat in what they offer. Charlo is the bull that to date is my go to for muscle but he can knock you down as far as frame. we Just took yearling weights on our heifer pen and a Charlo is the heaviest of the group she is moderately framed but wide and deep, another bonus with Charlo is udder and feet and his daughters just work, and his sons are the first to sell.

Did you just call my Wagyu cattle ugly? LoL

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Don't be afraid of "moderate". Height isn't as important as weight. If they have the width and depth, who cares if they have legs?
I raise what I can sell for the highest dollar. Yes, I used to have frame 9 cattle. But, we kept our structure requirements high. I told everyone, "when people will pay me for short, I will be able to make my cattle short in 1 breeding". People finally got smart, and decided they didn't need long legs. I LOVE my "moderate" 1600# mommas.
In my breed, I watch the REA epd more than any other carcass info. Like Angus, all Simmental marble well.
@gizmom LOVE the looks of that bull. Who is he? I don't care what breed, he is the phenotype I like.

 

[gizmom]

Did you just call my Wagyu cattle ugly? LoL

Well I guess I did …..I didn’t mean to offend because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but this beholder thinks they are homely critters.

 

[gizmom]

Don't be afraid of "moderate". Height isn't as important as weight. If they have the width and depth, who cares if they have legs?
I raise what I can sell for the highest dollar. Yes, I used to have frame 9 cattle. But, we kept our structure requirements high. I told everyone, "when people will pay me for short, I will be able to make my cattle short in 1 breeding". People finally got smart, and decided they didn't need long legs. I LOVE my "moderate" 1600# mommas.
In my breed, I watch the REA epd more than any other carcass info. Like Angus, all Simmental marble well.
@gizmom LOVE the looks of that bull. Who is he? I don't care what breed, he is the phenotype I like.

Jeanne the bull pictured is Coleman Resolve 7219 reg# 19102305 he is a beautiful blend of two excellent programs. SAV Renown 3439 on top and Coleman Donna 714 on the bottom. Genetically I think he should be a home run hitter. First season using him so I will let you know in five years if he is as good as I think he will be. That is the downside of being a breeder until daughters wean that first calf you really don’t know. Then do the granddaughters work? God I love this stuff!

 

[Mountaintown Creek Ranch]

Well I guess I did …..I didn’t mean to offend because beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but this beholder thinks they are homely critters.

IDK but I think this one is a looker!
We AI this guy to our Registered Angus...she is due in May...going to be interesting.