story behind the new heifer (w/pics)

[milkmaid]

This calf was about as cheap as they come...because yes, like most cheap critters, she does have something wrong with her. :lol: She should make a decent nurse cow someday but boss didn't think she'd hold up in the milking herd.

Last fall there was a pen of young calves that all came down with pnemonia. This was one of them. Boss lost three or four in about 24 hours. As far as I can remember this heifer was only treated with Nuflor. She was about 3 or 4 months old then, and when she recovered she couldn't use her right front leg. We haven't been able to come up with a logical reason for why, only that she might have had nerve damage in that leg. Again, how or why we don't know. She was perfectly fine before.

It's been almost a year since then and she now has limited use of that leg, but doesn't walk "right". In her efforts to compensate for not being able to use one leg well she walks and stands very strangely. I snapped a few pics that might help explain...

Front and back view of that leg

See how she's standing on the left front leg to make up for the way the right one doesn't work?

This isn't one of those calves that I think I can 'help' or that I can even do something for. I have no idea just what exactly is wrong, but I do know some folks who'd be interested in her as a nurse cow eventually - folks that don't care if they have four, two, or six legs as long as they can feed calves. LOL!

She does get around all right, and as long as she doesn't have to compete with a lot of cows for feed she should be fine. I'll get her halter broke, fed right, bred, and sell her just before she calves next year. For this cheap I can mess around with her.

Anyhow, that's the story behind the new one. I now have two sound, healthy heifer calves -- and two lame, three-legged heifer calves. LOL. :lol: ;-)

 

[Brandonm2]

I don't like always being a stick in the mud; BUT if she is hobbling around as a 400 pound heifer what do you think is going to happen when she is carrying her first calf OR when she is 5 years old and weighs 1350 pounds? And anything that happens to those other three wheels,......a piece of wire between the hoofs, hoof rot, broke hoof, a pulled muscle, anything at all (even if normally curable) and that cow is down, crippled, and probably lying there dying.

 

[Wewild]

BUT if she is hobbling around as a 500 pound heifer what do you think is going to happen when she is carrying her first calf OR when she is 5 years old and weighs 1350 pounds? And anything that happens to those other three wheels,......a piece of wire between the hoofs, hoof rot, broke hoof, a pulled muscle, anything at all (even if normally curable) and that cow is down, crippled, and probably lying there dying.

Was that a rhetorical question? She all ready answered it.

For this cheap I can mess around with her.

 

[Brandonm2]

I am not faulting her for messing around with it; I probably would have done the same thing. I just think that planning on selling it to someone for a nurse cow "might" not be the wisest course. I don't believe in breeding unsound cattle.

 

[Wewild]

I am not faulting her for messing around with it; I probably would have done the same thing. I just think that planning on selling it to someone for a nurse cow "might" not be the wisest course. I don't believe in breeding unsound cattle.

I'd say whether your right or wrong depends on the buyer as she intends to sell. I believe you will be found to be wrong as she will probably make money as long as she does it right even if it goes to slaughter.

 

[milkmaid]

She was all right before whatever happened happened, so I don't think it's a genetic flaw. And there has been a gradual improvement - some use of the leg - over the past year, so who knows? she might get to where it's only obvious if you know what you're looking for.

One feller I know has/had a cow that'd had blackleg as a calf and could not use one hind leg at all. Penned by herself or with one other cow for company - where she didn't have to move much or fight for feed - she made a fine nurse cow for him. I believe he sold her this spring after years of use when she got to the point she wasn't milking well enough to pay her way.

That's probably what this heifer will be like - but at least she can bear weight on all four legs.

 

[Brandonm2]

I'd say whether your right or wrong depends on the buyer as she intends to sell. I believe you will be found to be wrong as she will probably make money as long as she does it right even if it goes to slaughter.

I don't judge success of failure solely by whether or not you made a dollar. I did not tell her to put the calf down, but simply to prepare for the possibility that this heifer may not be breeding stock of any kind. Obviously, continuing to grow the calf out is the smart play right now; though if she is still lame at 15 months freezer beef is probably the best course (the yard will usually dock a cripple beyond reason). While it is possible that she can find a patsie who is willing to buy a bred crippled heifer, I would rather not take advantage of anybody I actually knew and hurt my reputation.

 

[Wewild]

I don't judge success of failure solely by whether or not you made a dollar. .

You have moral and ethical obligations of which I don't see she has crossed any fences. Was that a rhetorical statement as well.?

I did not tell her to put the calf down, but simply to prepare for the possibility that this heifer may not be breeding stock of any kind.

I think she answered why she was going to take a chance on breeding her and said the problem was not genetic.

Obviously, continuing to grow the calf out is the smart play right now; though if she is still lame at 15 months freezer beef is probably the best course (the yard will usually dock a cripple beyond reason).

.

You already said the first part in you second post. As for the last I will defer to my last post.

While it is possible that she can find a patsie who is willing to buy a bred crippled heifer, I would rather not take advantage of anybody I actually knew and hurt my reputation.

As for this ... you are getting into my first thoughts on this post as it seems that it's not your choice and she has already given you an worse example that seems to be a success story.

As I said before, I think you will be found wrong and as an addition you may need to go defend SCfarms on another post as they are not being kind to him.

I am sorry Milkmaid as it seems this post has become between him and I.

 

[msscamp]

This calf was about as cheap as they come...because yes, like most cheap critters, she does have something wrong with her. :lol: She should make a decent nurse cow someday but boss didn't think she'd hold up in the milking herd.

Should being the keyword here. If she can't hold up as a milk cow how can you think she will hold up as being a mom?

It's been almost a year since then and she now has limited use of that leg, but doesn't walk "right". In her efforts to compensate for not being able to use one leg well she walks and stands very strangely. I snapped a few pics that might help explain...

This isn't one of those calves that I think I can 'help' or that I can even do something for. I have no idea just what exactly is wrong, but I do know some folks who'd be interested in her as a nurse cow eventually - folks that don't care if they have four, two, or six legs as long as they can feed calves. LOL!

And you believe that is an acceptable attitude? I realize that the name of the game is to make money, but there are limits to what one should subject an animal to in order to achieve that goal. This heifer is having difficulty walking now, what do you think is going to happen when she's 900 pounds or better, has been bred and has that extra weight to deal with?

She does get around all right, and as long as she doesn't have to compete with a lot of cows for feed she should be fine. I'll get her halter broke, fed right, bred, and sell her just before she calves next year. For this cheap I can mess around with her.

Again, 'should be' are the key words. What is going to happen if these 'people' you are describing throw her into a herd and she has to compete? You have really surprised me with this post, Milkmaid. I truly did not expect this from you, as I honestly thought you had more compassion for an animal than this. I would have to agree with Brandonm2, just because an animal is breedable does not mean that she should be. I sincerely hope you will reconsider.

 

[milkmaid]

Ouch.

msscamp - I do have compassion for a suffering animal. You've seen my posts enough to know that, I think. To be honest, I even have trouble weaning calves and listening to them bawl.

But as for this heifer, she doesn't act as though she's in pain -I'm still inclined to think this is related to nerve damage because of how it was so sudden- and seems as though she's gradually getting feeling and movement back. She's about 650lbs now and I've watched her since last fall when she first came to my attention. She does walk better now than then, so there is an improvement. She wants to live and she gets around okay. Movement is a little strange, yes, but she puts weight on all four hooves as she walks. She's not hobbling around on three.

The reason she wouldn't make a good milk cow in the dairy herd is because she'd likely have trouble going through the barn, due to the space or lack of. She'd be fine on pasture (where she's been all summer) or really anywhere but going through the milking barn.

I say the word "should" in context of "she should be a good nurse cow" only because I do not know which cow she's out of. Whether she'll make a good nurse cow or not would depend on how well she does or does not milk. Technically there's no reason she wouldn't be a good nurse cow if she's giving enough milk to pay her way. That's the only reason I say "should" - because there are no guarantees with animals, and esp not when I don't know her sire or dam.

To me, brandon, I don't see a problem with selling her to someone who wants to use her as a nurse cow if she's being sold private-treaty and that person knows what her problems are. Am I wrong? I wouldn't try to deceive someone into thinking she was all right if she isn't.

Really, the cows are just fun for me. I work with them, I feed them, doctor them, halter break them, whatever. Generally they do need to pay their way at some time, although I don't always require that, and I don't necessarily try to make money off everything. I can afford to keep some animals on for a 'free' ride. It's not "all about the money" for me.

Folks, of course I take into consideration everything you say. I respect many of you folks on the board and I do value your opinions and advice. I'll think about this heifer, but what I'll do or not do remains to be decided. I have time to think it over - give her a few months, some good feed, and I'll see how she looks.

 

[milkmaid]

Food for thought - what is the difference between

this big heifer (at the moment known only as #42), and

this little navel ill heifer calf (Freckles-or-whatever-her-name-is)?

Freckles IS only running around on three legs; she does not use her right rear leg at all. From my viewpoint, on three legs she's going to break down a lot sooner than #42 is on four legs. More than that, though - Freckles is already breaking down. I've been given instructions to keep her penned in a smaller area so she does not run and put extra stress on that hind leg.

But you know what? That calf loves life and loves to run - even on three legs. Is it cruel to keep her alive when she's breaking down already, at less than 3 months of age, because it looks as though she may be suffering or in pain? I know even now that she'll never be completely sound, although my vet has hopes that someday she'll be able to use her other rear leg as a 'crutch' to get around on. Her future is no more than hamburger or a nurse cow either.

Think about it.

If I go out there tomorrow morning to do chores and Freckles is laying listlessly in the corner of her pen with that look in her eyes saying clearly that she's given up, should I make her live because I want my money back on her? In my book - NO. I've put well over $150 in vet bills and feed into her, but I can pull that trigger if she tells me she's had enough.

If I go out tomorrow and #42 has given up, I can pull that trigger too. But as long as a young calf wants to live - who am I to tell them they can't? We're not talking about market steers, just calves that want help and half-a-chance.

Just food for thought.

 

[Beefy]

Yall need to chill out.
Its not like Milkmaid is out to squeeze every cent out of her animals and i hardly think her goal is to pull one over on someone. i'm sure she intends to tell any prospective buyers about 42's condition, if one even exists in the future. You have no idea of knowing if 42 will hold up or not. And like Milkmaid said, she has time to evaluate 42's condition and 42 has time to prove herself. lets try not to jump to conclusions or be so judgemental.

 

[jgn]

Ya, what Beefy said. Ease up.

 

[Brandonm2]

Ouch.

msscamp - I do have compassion for a suffering animal. You've seen my posts enough to know that, I think. To be honest, I even have trouble weaning calves and listening to them bawl.

But as for this heifer, she doesn't act as though she's in pain -I'm still inclined to think this is related to nerve damage because of how it was so sudden- and seems as though she's gradually getting feeling and movement back. She's about 650lbs now and I've watched her since last fall when she first came to my attention. She does walk better now than then, so there is an improvement. She wants to live and she gets around okay. Movement is a little strange, yes, but she puts weight on all four hooves as she walks. She's not hobbling around on three.

The reason she wouldn't make a good milk cow in the dairy herd is because she'd likely have trouble going through the barn, due to the space or lack of. She'd be fine on pasture (where she's been all summer) or really anywhere but going through the milking barn.

I say the word "should" in context of "she should be a good nurse cow" only because I do not know which cow she's out of. Whether she'll make a good nurse cow or not would depend on how well she does or does not milk. Technically there's no reason she wouldn't be a good nurse cow if she's giving enough milk to pay her way. That's the only reason I say "should" - because there are no guarantees with animals, and esp not when I don't know her sire or dam.

To me, brandon, I don't see a problem with selling her to someone who wants to use her as a nurse cow if she's being sold private-treaty and that person knows what her problems are. Am I wrong? I wouldn't try to deceive someone into thinking she was all right if she isn't.

Really, the cows are just fun for me. I work with them, I feed them, doctor them, halter break them, whatever. Generally they do need to pay their way at some time, although I don't always require that, and I don't necessarily try to make money off everything. I can afford to keep some animals on for a 'free' ride. It's not "all about the money" for me.

Folks, of course I take into consideration everything you say. I respect many of you folks on the board and I do value your opinions and advice. I'll think about this heifer, but what I'll do or not do remains to be decided. I have time to think it over - give her a few months, some good feed, and I'll see how she looks.

I did not mean to sound harsh and I see nothing wrong with caring for lame calves. I just question the wisdom of breeding crippled cows. I have never seen these animals move so am basing my opinion ONLY on the description of their condition in your original post. I can't make a reccomendation or not as to whether they are capable of bearing calves or not. It is very possible that this heifer will be sound at 15 months and I am only dealing with the possibility that she won't be. This is not a decision that has to be made until the heifers are 15 months old so I am not telling you to make it today; but generally I have found that mama cows need all four wheels. There could be an exception out there somewhere of a cow in a paddock on flat ground with an owner that keeps a roll bale in front of her 365 days a year that managed to function. I come from a beef environment where sound healthy cows walk a few miles a day gathering groceries, going to water, getting minerals, finding shade, etc. so here any kind of leg problem is a recipe for disaster. To me it is not a big leap from crippled cow to downer cow and having been there and done that I would rather not breed a cow I thought was going to end up that way, even if it was someone else who was going to take all the risks.

 

[sidney411]

Geez people! One minute everyone is praising MM for taking care of a poor sick calf and the next your jumping down her throat! I've agreed to disagree with some people more then once but this is absolutely ridiculous. MM has showed a lot more concern for her animals then a lot of other people. I for one trust her judgment on the well being of her animals. YOU GO MM!!!!

 

[dun]

Geez people! One minute everyone is praising MM for taking care of a poor sick calf and the next your jumping down her throat! I've agreed to disagree with some people more then once but this is absolutely ridiculous. MM has showed a lot more concern for her animals then a lot of other people. I for one trust her judgment on the well being of her animals. YOU GO MM!!!!

Doesn;t take long to go from "hero to zero" sometimes does it

dun

 

[JHH]

At least MM knows at some point she may have to ( pull the trigger). Sounds to me like she is just trying to help the animal. Lets not fault her for that,lots of people wouldnt even know they had an injured animal around here, ( meaning where I live) let alone try and help it.JHH

 

[WORANCH]

I am not faulting her for messing around with it; I probably would have done the same thing. I just think that planning on selling it to someone for a nurse cow "might" not be the wisest course. I don't believe in breeding unsound cattle.

I guess a prolapse cow is sound for breeding the way you look at it .

Well, I think the prolapse problem is under control; but it is NOT completely gone. I did have a stockyard Hereford cow (bloodlines completely unknown) prolapse on me ~3 years ago. It was no big deal. She was prolapsing about 3 weeks pre-calving, the vet helped me put her all back in, (I struggled with it for about 45 minutes before giving in and getting him on the phone) he put some staples in and we used shoe laces to lace up her business end. The vet thought this was the SECOND time this had happened to the young cow. I kept her in corral panels by the house (where I could check on her repeatedly), unstrung the laces on the big day, pulled the calf by hand, laced her back up, took the staples out a month later, pasture bred her, and sent her to the stockyard as a bred cow and got a 550 pound black baldie heifer out of the deal. Of couse somebody who checked their cows a little less would have lost the both of them

Brandonm2 you rebred a prolapse cow and resold her to a patsie, you just did it at the sale barn where the only reputation is hurt is the sale barns.

While it is possible that she can find a patsie who is willing to buy a bred crippled heifer, I would rather not take advantage of anybody I actually knew and hurt my reputation.

But you would take advantage of a stranger if you could????

I don't think MM is trying to take advantage of anyone .

 

[milkmaid]

Geez people! One minute everyone is praising MM for taking care of a poor sick calf and the next your jumping down her throat! I've agreed to disagree with some people more then once but this is absolutely ridiculous. MM has showed a lot more concern for her animals then a lot of other people. I for one trust her judgment on the well being of her animals. YOU GO MM!!!!

Thanks sidney. :)

Doesn;t take long to go from "hero to zero" sometimes does it

dun

All good things must come to an end sometime. I'm just human like everyone else and folks must realize that sooner or later. Although I'll admit that I've liked the attention - who doesn't?


Most -or nearly all beef folks- have a strict set of standards their cows are held up to if they're to stay. I always keep in mind that 99% of those on the board are strictly beef and look at everything from that perspective. I recall when I brought 311 home last winter and asked for advice on what to do for her severe case of footrot, most folks said "ship her". I can understand that, and if I had a larger herd and no time for pampering sick animals I might well have done it.

As it was, I kept her, doctored her, and you'd never know it was the same cow now. She's gone from completely lame and 200lbs underweight to healthy and sound. I have pictures and the difference is amazing.

I'm used to nurse cows being imperfect animals. You folks think of a breeding animal as something that is sound and can take care of itself on pasture all summer, live on "fescue and rocks" as someone put it. Dairy animals can't do that - I think a good example of it is the difference in the two heifers in my other post. Six months difference in age and if anything, the younger calf on grain is bigger than the older one that was put out to pasture.

Most of the nurse cows I see and work around are culls for one reason or another. They're pampered, grained heavily, and yes, they do usually have one "wheel" that doesn't work right. Flaws like abcesses, foot rot, etc aren't passed on to their calves, and if a cow has a calf every 18 months or so and feeds dozens in the meantime, that's perfectly sufficient.

If you folks were to actually meet me, you'd find I do like to talk a lot about my animals. I've been posting stories, pictures, and information on what I've learned thinking perhaps some of you would be interested in reading it, and there's frequently advice offered that is helpful to me. Like when I posted about the heifer calf with scours this past summer, just as a thought-you-all-might-find-this-interesting post, and received a lot of good suggestions and advice that I've taken to heart and used on other calves. I know a lot more about scours now than then.

To be honest, in addition to thinking this heifer's story might be interesting to some- I was half-hoping someone else would have encountered something like it before and know what exactly it was that happened to her. I really do want to know what and why - there's no sense in having the same thing happen over again. If it were a freak thing, fine, but if it's not, we could have another calf show up with the same problem - and to me, one is enough. It was just wistful thinking when I posted; I may never know for sure.

 

[Wewild]

I am not faulting her for messing around with it; I probably would have done the same thing. I just think that planning on selling it to someone for a nurse cow "might" not be the wisest course. I don't believe in breeding unsound cattle.

I guess a prolapse cow is sound for breeding the way you look at it .

Well, I think the prolapse problem is under control; but it is NOT completely gone. I did have a stockyard Hereford cow (bloodlines completely unknown) prolapse on me ~3 years ago. It was no big deal. She was prolapsing about 3 weeks pre-calving, the vet helped me put her all back in, (I struggled with it for about 45 minutes before giving in and getting him on the phone) he put some staples in and we used shoe laces to lace up her business end. The vet thought this was the SECOND time this had happened to the young cow. I kept her in corral panels by the house (where I could check on her repeatedly), unstrung the laces on the big day, pulled the calf by hand, laced her back up, took the staples out a month later, pasture bred her, and sent her to the stockyard as a bred cow and got a 550 pound black baldie heifer out of the deal. Of couse somebody who checked their cows a little less would have lost the both of them

Brandonm2 you rebred a prolapse cow and resold her to a patsie, you just did it at the sale barn where the only reputation is hurt is the sale barns.

While it is possible that she can find a patsie who is willing to buy a bred crippled heifer, I would rather not take advantage of anybody I actually knew and hurt my reputation.

But you would take advantage of a stranger if you could????

I don't think MM is trying to take advantage of anyone .

Good post. If he answers, it will not address his transgressions.