backhoeboogie
Well-known member
wstevenl":2wrsmz80 said:
Clover was different and it worked.
feeding 10 million chickens would be awful expensive and what would I do with them?
STIR the POT - again!
- Thread starter DOC HARRIS
- Start date
Clover was different and it worked.
feeding 10 million chickens would be awful expensive and what would I do with them?
wstevenl Seems you have been hitting the grassfarmer koolaid pretty hard :drink:
Just because we can print things doesn't make them true.Lots of reasons things do and don't work just remember Salatin and friends are just as good at marketing as the establishment they say has it all wrong.
Just because we can print things doesn't make them true.Lots of reasons things do and don't work just remember Salatin and friends are just as good at marketing as the establishment they say has it all wrong.
You pegged me, I think cows are supposed to eat grass. Where's the door? Do I have to leave now?
I also have a problem with government subsidized STUFF corn, ethanol, etc. just on an economic basis mostly. If I'm going to raise cattle I don't want to get stuck in a system where I can only make money because the Feds. are keeping grain prices down. Even if it works for the next 40 years until I retired, I don't want to be a hypocrite by taking that government help.
Anyways...
There are some people in the US that have been able to graze year round. This probably isn't for everyone but I know that Salatin has put herds of 200 or so through the winter on stocked forages.
You're right, using clover and not using N is different for most people... good job. I imagine if something has been working okay for you then it would be hard to take a risk by not fertilizing, but the benefits could be pretty good in this day of high oil products.
I doubt it would take a million chickens We've got 24 right now following our 6 cattle in the pasture and they are doing a pretty good job of tearing up the cow patties and eating fly larvae. These are laying hens so we get around 20 eggs a day that I either sell, eat, or feed to the hogs but they probably don't crap enough to make a huge difference. We don't have to feed them too much because of all the grass and bugs they eat. I'd like to have around 80 or 100 hens following our herd next year and if I get brave enough we're going to raise some broilers on pasture in movable pens. This is where the N. replacement would really happen! I just need to be willing to butcher and sell them myself. I'm sure I could sell 50 or so broilers I just don't know if I want to process them all on my own.
I have a buddy that does 4 or 5 batches of 350 birds each summer... all on pasture. Talk about healthy grass! He sold all but about 10 of the first 350 on the day he processed them.
I also have a problem with government subsidized STUFF corn, ethanol, etc. just on an economic basis mostly. If I'm going to raise cattle I don't want to get stuck in a system where I can only make money because the Feds. are keeping grain prices down. Even if it works for the next 40 years until I retired, I don't want to be a hypocrite by taking that government help.
Anyways...
There are some people in the US that have been able to graze year round. This probably isn't for everyone but I know that Salatin has put herds of 200 or so through the winter on stocked forages.
You're right, using clover and not using N is different for most people... good job. I imagine if something has been working okay for you then it would be hard to take a risk by not fertilizing, but the benefits could be pretty good in this day of high oil products.
I doubt it would take a million chickens We've got 24 right now following our 6 cattle in the pasture and they are doing a pretty good job of tearing up the cow patties and eating fly larvae. These are laying hens so we get around 20 eggs a day that I either sell, eat, or feed to the hogs but they probably don't crap enough to make a huge difference. We don't have to feed them too much because of all the grass and bugs they eat. I'd like to have around 80 or 100 hens following our herd next year and if I get brave enough we're going to raise some broilers on pasture in movable pens. This is where the N. replacement would really happen! I just need to be willing to butcher and sell them myself. I'm sure I could sell 50 or so broilers I just don't know if I want to process them all on my own.
I have a buddy that does 4 or 5 batches of 350 birds each summer... all on pasture. Talk about healthy grass! He sold all but about 10 of the first 350 on the day he processed them.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
you'r leaving water out... got to have the water to make this perfect world come together....wstevenl":zdq414r6 said:
What I'd like to see is someone that got hooked in by Salatin/ Stockman Grassfarmer, tried some of his model for a few years and can explain why it didn't work for them. What I usually see is people that just don't believe it saying that it's impossible or that we don't have enough pasture in America.
"You're leaving water out... got to have the water to make this perfect world come together...."
Yeah you need water but if you build up your organic mater and give the pasture 30 to 60 days to recoup it should be able to make better use of the moisture that it does get.
"You're leaving water out... got to have the water to make this perfect world come together...."
Yeah you need water but if you build up your organic mater and give the pasture 30 to 60 days to recoup it should be able to make better use of the moisture that it does get.
ALACOWMAN
Well-known member
do i still get to wear my cowboy boots and hat, with this method..? i cant bring myself to put on a pair of sandals ;-)wstevenl":2r8ellmn said:
novatech
Well-known member
I see the future holding a lot of trial and error. It will be a combination of things that will work for us. What will work for me may not work for others. There must be better forage and forage management. There must be better cattle and cattle management.
Manure may be more economical for some on the pasture but others may find that transportation costs would eat up any benefit.
Reduction of frame score would help many but that alone is not enough. This is why we no longer raise those 800 lb. longhorn cows we sometimes see in the old movies. The Irish Blacks often spoken of on here and promoted by Doc were DNA tested for quality, tenderness, and efficiency. I am sure there were a lot of other New or Modern testing implemented also. One thing is for sure, being of a 4.5 or 5 frame score is not the only reason they are thought of as high quality efficient cattle.
There will be those that choose to go the Niche market but then if everyone did it then it would no longer be a niche, and there certainly would not be enough pasture to go around if everyone went the grass fed rout.
Efficiency will be on the top of our list in all aspects of our cattle operations, from how many times we visit the pasture to what it costs us to market the animal.
Me, I bought a new pencil sharpener.
Manure may be more economical for some on the pasture but others may find that transportation costs would eat up any benefit.
Reduction of frame score would help many but that alone is not enough. This is why we no longer raise those 800 lb. longhorn cows we sometimes see in the old movies. The Irish Blacks often spoken of on here and promoted by Doc were DNA tested for quality, tenderness, and efficiency. I am sure there were a lot of other New or Modern testing implemented also. One thing is for sure, being of a 4.5 or 5 frame score is not the only reason they are thought of as high quality efficient cattle.
There will be those that choose to go the Niche market but then if everyone did it then it would no longer be a niche, and there certainly would not be enough pasture to go around if everyone went the grass fed rout.
Efficiency will be on the top of our list in all aspects of our cattle operations, from how many times we visit the pasture to what it costs us to market the animal.
Me, I bought a new pencil sharpener.
wstevenl":3mgyo6hk said:
Not jumping on you at all, but SGF has been known to "stretch" facts somewhat. I agree most of it is good reading and that there is something to be learnt or at least it stimulates you to think, but its also the same magazine who published that if you use a certain line of linebred (highly prepotent) hereford bull on angus cows you'll get red horned calves....
Southeast Missouri right at the top of the bootheel.
No, not a liberal east or west coast enviro-nut. Just a young and dumb guy that's been reading alot and wonder if the time of cheap corn and oil might be over. I first got interested because we've got a family farm that is rented out. 195 tillable acres and I started researching how I might be able to make more on it in the future than what we get as rent from a row-crop farmer. Now I've got 10 acres of that started in pasture as an experiment.
No, not a liberal east or west coast enviro-nut. Just a young and dumb guy that's been reading alot and wonder if the time of cheap corn and oil might be over. I first got interested because we've got a family farm that is rented out. 195 tillable acres and I started researching how I might be able to make more on it in the future than what we get as rent from a row-crop farmer. Now I've got 10 acres of that started in pasture as an experiment.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
wstevenl":11qoi0ui said:
They halted the subsidy for peanuts here. Everyone survived except we can't buy peanut hay locally anymore. Peanut butter is still available in all the stores. So I am with you on subsidies.
If it only takes 4 chickens per cow, based on your input, it is not as bad as I thought. But clover works great for me and it is a sure thing. No worry about all the coyotes getting the chickens either. Coyotes are abundant in these parts.
The cows are knee deep in good grass right now just rotated into a fresh pasture. I've got plenty of hay stockpiled and could graze many more head if I had them. Hence, I'll pass on the chickens.
My whole point was I tried something "new" for me in this climate with success. There has been times it wasn't so successful. This was in response to your statement about being afraid to try something new.
I'll also pass on working cows in sandals. Just call me an ole stick in the mud.
novatech
Well-known member
backhoeboogie":2crbahzy said:
After reading about you planting clover I decided to call our local supplier and ask about sales.
Fertilizer is down over 25%, clover sales went up by over 300% last fall. He expects clover sales to increase even more this comming fall.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
novatech":3nfd4yc9 said:
That first year I planted it, it was overseeded on the coastal field on the flood plain. The dude at Turner Seed told me that "It might grow as tall as 6 foot" and I remember thinking, "Yeah Right" :roll: Darned if some of it didn't get to 8 feet.
They are saying there will be a shortage of Hubam this year and I wanted to get some seed as soon as they had stock. They say they have an abundance of Madrid seed and it will do about as good for me in my situation.
Madrid will cost about $22 an acre. Hubam will cost about $37.50 an acre. Either way, it is much cheaper than fertilizer and you get to kill two birds with one stone. Cows go nuts over it.
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
wstevenl-
It seems that it is just human nature that people are reluctant to reach out and try something that is different than what they have been comfortable doing most of their lives. Change for 'change sake' is going against the grain. The compelling reasons must be very strong to 'convince' a strong personality to change their mind and consent to new protocols.
Years ago when "fertilizer" became to key watchword, everyone was caught up in the necessity of blindly providing N to everything, which, at that time, was correct, because there was a gross deficiency to almost every acre of land, and 4-12-4 formula fertilizer was the standard application. Subsequently, in later years, and the advent of Soil Testing for the determination of exactly what was needed and necessary, different formulae were developed, the growing of Legumes with their Nitrogen-fixing nodules on the roots were utilized, and sensible usages were encorporated in the overall management of soils and land (Contouring and Terracing), and therefore, a lot of the cropland AND pastures were maintained and preserved. Thanks to Dr. William Albrecht of the University of Missouri, the absolutely CRITICAL need for Lime was advanced and accepted by almost every forward thinking Farmer and Grower, and the general level of productivity of our valuable acreage has been recognized., and improved. As a result, with the rotation of herds on pastures, with or without Chickens, composted manure and spreading on pastures - you are right - the necessity of application of Nitrogen has been determined to be done by the actual requirements of the soil, thereby precluding the unnecessary application where it's not heavily required.
Mob grazing is another method of Livestock Management Practices which has helped to make the Beef Business more productive and profitable. Even though grass finishing is often a topic for discussion, it is a viable method of management protocols, and should be considered in times of high prices, grain shortages, whatever the causes, and weather complexities.
wstevenl, you have correctly analyzed the situations which are prevailing currently. It makes no difference if you have 7 head, or 700 head, the principles remain the same, and you have educated yourself very well, and I commend you. I recommend that you be steadfast in the application of your knowledge, and persevere in your goals.
DOC HARRIS
It seems that it is just human nature that people are reluctant to reach out and try something that is different than what they have been comfortable doing most of their lives. Change for 'change sake' is going against the grain. The compelling reasons must be very strong to 'convince' a strong personality to change their mind and consent to new protocols.
Years ago when "fertilizer" became to key watchword, everyone was caught up in the necessity of blindly providing N to everything, which, at that time, was correct, because there was a gross deficiency to almost every acre of land, and 4-12-4 formula fertilizer was the standard application. Subsequently, in later years, and the advent of Soil Testing for the determination of exactly what was needed and necessary, different formulae were developed, the growing of Legumes with their Nitrogen-fixing nodules on the roots were utilized, and sensible usages were encorporated in the overall management of soils and land (Contouring and Terracing), and therefore, a lot of the cropland AND pastures were maintained and preserved. Thanks to Dr. William Albrecht of the University of Missouri, the absolutely CRITICAL need for Lime was advanced and accepted by almost every forward thinking Farmer and Grower, and the general level of productivity of our valuable acreage has been recognized., and improved. As a result, with the rotation of herds on pastures, with or without Chickens, composted manure and spreading on pastures - you are right - the necessity of application of Nitrogen has been determined to be done by the actual requirements of the soil, thereby precluding the unnecessary application where it's not heavily required.
Mob grazing is another method of Livestock Management Practices which has helped to make the Beef Business more productive and profitable. Even though grass finishing is often a topic for discussion, it is a viable method of management protocols, and should be considered in times of high prices, grain shortages, whatever the causes, and weather complexities.
wstevenl, you have correctly analyzed the situations which are prevailing currently. It makes no difference if you have 7 head, or 700 head, the principles remain the same, and you have educated yourself very well, and I commend you. I recommend that you be steadfast in the application of your knowledge, and persevere in your goals.
DOC HARRIS
How many of us know how much our cows weigh ? weighed 7 pot loads of my own and found out my guess was two hundred pounds short . Seen some of Kits herd rite after that his weights are light too . It takes a damn good 1100 lb cow to raise the 750 lbs calf we all want . GREAT job on the soap box Rob.
Brandonm22
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2008
- Messages
- 1,848
I hate to be the voice of negativity; but I have eaten Choice, Prime, CAB, Select, grass fed, cow steaks, farm butchered, and the cow they found dead out in the field one morning(first fiance's family....it's a long story) and while I can taste and see the differences, seldom has there been a steak, roast, or burger that I didn't like (or chicken, duck, pig, deer, fish,......maybe that is why I am 300 lbs). I don't pay more money for Choice than for Select and I don't pay more for CAB than for Select......and around here there usually isn't a price difference. Whatever grocery stores sell they use as a price leader. I can't think of any reason why I would pay more for a grain finished CAB steak than for a Brazilian or Argentine grass finished steak. In short, I am going too buy the cheapest steaks in the meat counter........and I suspect that there are more people like me on the demand side than most of us are willing too admit.
Can we can rely on people choosing American beef at the house? and since COOL still isn't in effect I don't know how they do that. The American textile industry relied on people "buying American" and it is pretty much destroyed. Ford, Dodge, and GM have done much the same thing and gotten their ears boxed in for it. Most people don't give a rip where their stuff comes from. If they think that the foreign product is better or is cheaper they will ignore the flag on the label. And even if that is not true there are still the restaurants. I ate Mongolian Beef tonight at a Chinese restaurant up the road. That probably was American beef; but I bet neither I nor the restaurant have any way of knowing that. Last night was buy a dinner and get a dinner free night at the local Mexican restaurant. I had a beef burito, a beef enchilada, a beef taco, and a beef taquito. Most days I eat a cheese burger whether I grill it myself or buy it at McDonalds. Does anybody really believe that there is a dime's worth of difference between grass fattened and grain fattened in THOSE products???? WHEN (and under current trade laws it is "when" and not "if")they remove the existing trade barriers too Brazilian and Argentine beef the American cattle industry is going to have too put product on the table at the same price as the South Americans or else. And I don't see how this idiotic factory feedlot model we have adopted is going to do that with $7 corn much less the $10 corn we should see next summer if the flooding is as bad as it looks on TV. We are rapidly approaching the point where pouring 3000 lbs of corn (that could be better used to make 60 gallons of gas) into a steer to get 700 lbs of gain is not economically feasible.
If that means that the nation's beef herd is going to decline too make way for grass fattened steers.......then it declines. IF the American beef industry can't compete with their Latin American rivals......then there is no more American beef industry.......and I don't really think that the average urban/suburban American would even notice if we went out of business.....or care.
Can we can rely on people choosing American beef at the house? and since COOL still isn't in effect I don't know how they do that. The American textile industry relied on people "buying American" and it is pretty much destroyed. Ford, Dodge, and GM have done much the same thing and gotten their ears boxed in for it. Most people don't give a rip where their stuff comes from. If they think that the foreign product is better or is cheaper they will ignore the flag on the label. And even if that is not true there are still the restaurants. I ate Mongolian Beef tonight at a Chinese restaurant up the road. That probably was American beef; but I bet neither I nor the restaurant have any way of knowing that. Last night was buy a dinner and get a dinner free night at the local Mexican restaurant. I had a beef burito, a beef enchilada, a beef taco, and a beef taquito. Most days I eat a cheese burger whether I grill it myself or buy it at McDonalds. Does anybody really believe that there is a dime's worth of difference between grass fattened and grain fattened in THOSE products???? WHEN (and under current trade laws it is "when" and not "if")they remove the existing trade barriers too Brazilian and Argentine beef the American cattle industry is going to have too put product on the table at the same price as the South Americans or else. And I don't see how this idiotic factory feedlot model we have adopted is going to do that with $7 corn much less the $10 corn we should see next summer if the flooding is as bad as it looks on TV. We are rapidly approaching the point where pouring 3000 lbs of corn (that could be better used to make 60 gallons of gas) into a steer to get 700 lbs of gain is not economically feasible.
If that means that the nation's beef herd is going to decline too make way for grass fattened steers.......then it declines. IF the American beef industry can't compete with their Latin American rivals......then there is no more American beef industry.......and I don't really think that the average urban/suburban American would even notice if we went out of business.....or care.
