Small time cattle operation

[MissouriExile]

Take 40 acres with decent fencing, cross fencing installed (6-8 acres each for intensive grazing, water, Working facilities installed, decent small barn. decent older used tractor, etc All paid for and with these costs not part of the calculations.
Decent grass, fescue, red clover. Recommeded 3 acres per pair in the neighborhood

(You understand; this is a friend of mine.... absolutely nothing to do with me...... although this guy does live in SW Missouri and he is a great person).

Is is possible to turn a buck on a cattle operation given these type of assets on this kind of scale?

He doesn't expect this operation to support a family. ( and by buck I mean relative to the size of the operation. I (he) wouldn't expect 40 acres to make as much as 300 acres etc)

I ask because most of the talk on these boards drifts to much more substantial operations on much more land.

It all boils down to the question: Is there a place for small cattle farms in todays world?
Jon

 

[backhoeboogie]

Yes you can make a little money on it, but not using conventional cattle ranching methodology. Glitch markets etc take time investment and there is not much return on your time. He could run a nurse cow operation and raise more steers that much larger ranches - but that is a lot of time investment.

But, if you question is can it be done, the answer is "yes".

 

[hillrancher]

Yes, a person has to live somewhere. On a small scale there is tax breaks, repairs and ect. that can be used for a deduction. As for money for vacation maybe one in 15 years and never expect to drive a new Vachel and eat out once a week.

You can have a garden, meat and many other things you will not have in the city, but you don't have the city. It is a choice that has to be made.

 

[MissouriExile]

Yes, a person has to live somewhere. On a small scale there is tax breaks, repairs and ect. that can be used for a deduction. As for money for vacation maybe one in 15 years and never expect to drive a new Vachel and eat out once a week.

You can have a garden, meat and many other things you will not have in the city, but you don't have the city. It is a choice that has to be made.

I suspect "my friend" would find your description of "tight" living on a small place curiously attractive. Hopefully he has learned what is important in life and what is somewhat less important.

Thanks for your thoughts, I (and he) appreciate it.

Jon

 

[Susie David]

Keeps me from having to get a town job...and is putting a kid through college.
We have developed a "niche" market and sell beef and every-so-often heifers.
DMc

 

[MissouriExile]

Yes you can make a little money on it, but not using conventional cattle ranching methodology. Glitch markets etc take time investment and there is not much return on your time. He could run a nurse cow operation and raise more steers that much larger ranches - but that is a lot of time investment.

But, if you question is can it be done, the answer is "yes".

Thanks for your thoughts. I believe you are right about abandoning conventional methodologies. I am looking at several approaches. Using Nurse Cow(s) to raise freezer beef steers niche operation is an attractive idea.

Jon

 

[bigbull338]

yes i think you can make some money with 15 cows an low overhead.you wont get rich but you can make a little money.hay will be the big expense.

 

[rkm]

With just 15 cows any kind of bad luck could wipe out any profit. If you only did cow-calf you are looking at $ 9 to $10,000 gross. :shock: Figure your net and your a hobby. Not saying its a bad thing, but I don,t think you will break even. jmo

 

[hgfarmer]

Yes you can make a little money on it, but not using conventional cattle ranching methodology. Glitch markets etc take time investment and there is not much return on your time. He could run a nurse cow operation and raise more steers that much larger ranches - but that is a lot of time investment.

But, if you question is can it be done, the answer is "yes".

Thanks for your thoughts. I believe you are right about abandoning conventional methodologies. I am looking at several approaches. Using Nurse Cow(s) to raise freezer beef steers niche operation is an attractive idea.

Jon

If your friend has the time, its a great idea...you turn a pretty nice profit if done right.

 

[Txwalt]

It's the capital expenses that can kill a small operation. Tractor, stock trailer, squeeze chute, corals, and a truck or an upgrade of your current truck. Just going from a half ton to a 3/4 quarter ton or two wheel drive to 4 is expensive. The other thing is maximizing your bull to cow ratio if your going the traditional route. One bull with 5 cows vs. one bull with 30 cows. Put pen to paper and figure your expenses and estimated income per year. Make a sheet with worse case scenerios. Then a sheet with a good year. What are you going to do if your sick? Break a leg? You can't call in sick like a regular job. The best advice I can give you is, pencil it out with someone knowledgeable about the business and try to take everything into account and make your decision from there.

I asked a co-worker (he is a preacher) who was dabbling in stocks. "Isn't that like gambling". He said "Its no different than ranching" (He grew up on a West TX ranch).

I've been ranching for 10 months now. But I've been reading these boards everyday and I have the combined knowledge of thousands of years of ranching experience. ;-)

Walt

 

[KNERSIE]

Around here there are many smaller farmers that have alfalfa for a rotational crop, but don't have enough land for stock farming. Some of them have started taking in dairy heifers on a contract base. They get them after weaning and take them till they are either bred or ready to be bred and get paid per weight gain.

Usually the dairy will pay for vet expenses and vaccines, etc, but the farmer raising them have to do all the work involved.

Other dairies contract the the first two months of the heifer calves out and take them back after weaning. There are many other options except tarditional cow/calf.

 

[novatech]

Take 40 acres with decent fencing, cross fencing installed (6-8 acres each for intensive grazing, water, Working facilities installed, decent small barn. decent older used tractor, etc All paid for and with these costs not part of the calculations.
Decent grass, fescue, red clover. Recommeded 3 acres per pair in the neighborhood

(You understand; this is a friend of mine.... absolutely nothing to do with me...... although this guy does live in SW Missouri and he is a great person).

Is is possible to turn a buck on a cattle operation given these type of assets on this kind of scale?

He doesn't expect this operation to support a family. ( and by buck I mean relative to the size of the operation. I (he) wouldn't expect 40 acres to make as much as 300 acres etc)

I ask because most of the talk on these boards drifts to much more substantial operations on much more land.

It all boils down to the question: Is there a place for small cattle farms in todays world?
Jon

As many have pointed out yes you can turn a buck.
I see one problem with your scenario. Even though every thing is paid for at this time eventually it will have to be replaced, or at least maintained. That is when the numbers on paper will get you. Anybody can turn a buck with no expenses on just about any type of business, but that is not reality. Sooner or later somebody has to pay. With the exception of the land and a few others things infrastructure is diversified amongst the quantity of cattle one has. The more cattle the less per head the infrastructure costs. I am not saying you cannot still turn a buck just saying figure in all your costs.

 

[dun]

The economy of scale isn;t there, but it's possible. Not in a big way, but it can be done. The pennys need to be watched closely and any way that things can be done less expensively have to be taken. If you need T-posts, find a neighbor that also needs some. See if you can cut a deal with the supplier for a larger quantity. Same deal with feed etc. If you need a piece of equipment that will only be used occasioanlly, see if a neighbor will be willing to go in and buy it jointly.

 

[grannysoo]

You can achieve a small profit, but as has been stated, you MUST watch every penny to do it.

At this time, I am making a small profit, but look to make more in the next few years as my scale increases.

The other thing that has not been mentioned? I don't have to pay for therapy and my blood pressure is better now. Nothing like learning the more relaxed lifestyle to help with my sanity. That in itself makes all of this worthwhile to me.

 

[Troop]

The only difference between farming/ranching and Las Vegas is that you know within a couple of minutes of how your going to do in Vegas, farming/ranching takes all year.

The best advice ever given me was to save from when the times are good to cover when times are bad.

 

[MissouriExile]

With just 15 cows any kind of bad luck could wipe out any profit. If you only did cow-calf you are looking at $ 9 to $10,000 gross. :shock: Figure your net and your a hobby. Not saying its a bad thing, but I don,t think you will break even. jmo

I don't like using "hobby" to describe what I am working toward. You are right when you observe that it is not a big enough operation to make a living on. But if I can find a way (with good business practices) to clear $7,000 a year the place will pay for itself and I will get a free education in the cattle business (mostly the hard way). Who knows where that may lead?

Besides, there have been days when I would have liked to have had 7,000 bucks. Those days may come again.

Best Regards;
Jon

 

[dun]

With just 15 cows any kind of bad luck could wipe out any profit. If you only did cow-calf you are looking at $ 9 to $10,000 gross. :shock: Figure your net and your a hobby. Not saying its a bad thing, but I don,t think you will break even. jmo

I don't like using "hobby" to describe what I am working toward. You are right when you observe that it is not a big enough operation to make a living on. But if I can find a way (with good business practices) to clear $7,000 a year the place will pay for itself and I will get a free education in the cattle business (mostly the hard way). Who knows where that may lead?

Besides, there have been days when I would have liked to have had 7,000 bucks. Those days may come again.

Best Regards;
Jon

There are very few theings that are dead bang certain in the cattle business. But I'll gaurantee you that one of those things that are is that the education won;t be free.

 

[MissouriExile]

With just 15 cows any kind of bad luck could wipe out any profit. If you only did cow-calf you are looking at $ 9 to $10,000 gross. :shock: Figure your net and your a hobby. Not saying its a bad thing, but I don,t think you will break even. jmo

I don't like using "hobby" to describe what I am working toward. You are right when you observe that it is not a big enough operation to make a living on. But if I can find a way (with good business practices) to clear $7,000 a year the place will pay for itself and I will get a free education in the cattle business (mostly the hard way). Who knows where that may lead?

Besides, there have been days when I would have liked to have had 7,000 bucks. Those days may come again.

Best Regards;
Jon

There are very few theings that are dead bang certain in the cattle business. But I'll gaurantee you that one of those things that are is that the education won;t be free.

(Jon chuckles) You're right as always Dun. It will not be free.
I've been at it for 18 months now and have, indeed, learned some expensive lessons.

I learn a lot every day on this forum. Some of it I should have known before I spoke. (Or perhaps I should be thinking more and speaking less....)

Thanks to everyone for the Sage observations and advice.

Jon

 

[1848]

If everything else to support the operation is paid for (ie: land, equipment, pens, cattle, etc) and the crop can pay for their the herd maintenance and feed, plus profit...then yes. Otherwise you are paying to have a farm. The idea is to make the farm pay for everything else.... ;-)

 

[backhoeboogie]

(Jon chuckles) You're right as always Dun. It will not be free.
I've been at it for 18 months now and have, indeed, learned some expensive lessons.

I learn a lot every day on this forum. Some of it I should have known before I spoke. (Or perhaps I should be thinking more and speaking less....)

Thanks to everyone for the Sage observations and advice.

Jon

Jon, You are started. You have options. Some time, I promise you, someone will approach you and want to know if you'd consider leasing land - probably for a nominal fee. They are simply looking to maintain ag-exemptions. There will be other options.

On the learning end - it never stops. If you don't speak, no one will know what you are thinking, right or wrong. Some things work for me already, but I have since learned a better way.