Sleeving

[423]

Hello,

Does anyone here have an opinion on how reliable sleeving is for determining due dates?

Hindsight, I purchased a nice Red Holstein from a herd dispersal sale in December. She was not listed as bred, but serviced shortly before the sale. It was alleged that she came from a AI only herd with no cleanup bulls...

Longstory short, I had her sometime, and today the vet was over doing some herd checkups for me. She claimed while sleeving her that she was about 7 months bread... Per the dispersal paperwork, she'd be 5 months bred AI to an Angus Bull.

I was just looking for other opinions on this. I don't want to milk her to long and hurt her next lacation, as well as the calf... Is it possible the calf is just a larger calf?

This cow was a fancier 1st calf heifer, that was overdue on being breed back, and not confirmed bred at the sale. I got her for around cull price because of such, and it just worked out in my favor that she stuck the last service. She has pretty good body condition, and still is milking fairly well given how long she has been fresh for.

I wasn't sure if maybe calf size can through off the vet? Or if maybe there was a typo in the sale notes. But one thing I believe is if she is as far along as believed, they would have had her marked as bred via the vet check the day of the sale.

Just looking for opinions!

Thank You!

 

[farmerjan]

Welcome to CT forum. For future reference, could you go to your name top right, down to account details, and down to location and put a state or area... many times questions and comments and answers will have some bearing on where you are located. It will show up on your avatar and people will not keep asking you where you are located.

Couple of things from working with cattle for 50+ years... and being in and around the dairy business as a milker, for over 50 years, and currently a milk tester with United DHIA, for over 35ys. My son and I run a beef cow/calf operation and sell feeders.....
Sleeving. or as we call it "arming", or palpation preg checking can be tricky. Some vets are VERY GOOD, but most are not. Since the invention of the ultrasound and the high use, some vets cannot even palpate a cow for pregnancy with any accuracy.

I am NOT a vet.... BUT, I will tell you that regardless of whether ultrasound or palpation... when a cow gets over 5-6 months, the calf is way down over the pelvic region, it is VERY DIFFICULT to tell an exact date..... It is a "good guess.... So she could be the 5 months that the last bred date indicates...or she could have been bred to an earlier date, and the pregnancy was missed ... maybe never checked and then bred again shortly before the sale because someone saw her being ridden or riding another cow....
If you have a fair amount of confidence in your current vet, I would go with what they think. An extra month or 2 dry off is not going to kill you or her... if she is bred to the date indicated just before the sale, then she gets a longer dry period... if she happens to be bred to a previous date, then she will calve sooner.
If she were my cow... I would try to slow her milk down, cut all her extra grain, and dry her off within the next 15-20 days... to be on the safe side.

The calf could be a larger calf, giving the idea of being further along... we see it in some of the beef cattle that we had bred to our Gelbvieh bull... we had a couple that seemed further that had twins .... again all by palpation... the ultra sound is very accurate up until about 4-4 1/2 months... you get over 5 months bred and it can be "anytime"...

Example... had a group of 12 beef heifers ultrasounded... most were 5 or 6 months... 3 were 4-4 1/2 months.. one barely 4 months. All but one of the 5-6 months confirmed, calved in less than 3 weeks... 1 that was 4 1/2 months was the 3rd one that calved.... out of that group... One that was confirmed 6 months just calved a month behind the rest.... perfectly normal nice HEIFER calf... and still waiting on the one that was barely 4 months... I had a definite window on when the bull went in and came out so know the time frame they were due.... but it is great that most all were in the first 3 weeks......but not all calved when he said they were "due"....

Had a vet that could palpate and tell you the # of days if less than 90 days bred... has to do with the amount of fluid in the uterus and the "slip" as they palpate... and he was as gentle as can be and seldom if ever had any abort... But he liked them to be 35 + days at least, so the fetus was well attached... Ultra sound they can do as early as 29 days...and sexing with ultrasound has to be in the 55-90 day range....
I personally like to wait for at least 45 days..... and many of ours are out to pasture and when they get brought back they SHOULD be in the 5-6 month range... so it is a guess when they are heavy bred. But some times we will have a group that have been moved around like this last preg check... and I could tell you each group... which bull, how many days... and the furthest along bred, were 4 1/2 months and the least were 75 days minimum.......only had 1 out of 23 that was open.... and it is her 2nd chance, so she will get sold this week.

So long story short... yes calf size can make a bit of a difference... but more often it is just that the vet just can't be sure when they get over that 5-6 month time frame... so make an educated guess with the size of the fetus and how it lays in the body cavity.

@Dave is on the western side of the US and he buys one and done beef cattle that work for what he does... they are preg checked at the stockyard and he has had 5-6 month ones calve within weeks of bringing them home and 8 month ones that are the last to calve.... his program needs the calves to be older and ready to go out to pasture as the cows have to come off the rented ground by mid Aug... so the "bigger" calves just do a little better and bring more when he sells them after backgrounding for 60 days...

I suspect that the cow had a previous breeding(s) and that has her further along bred than they thought...

 

[Ky hills]

It can be quite a range on accuracy.
Most vets I’ve heard say around 3 months is best for accuracy. Sometimes can call it at a month or a little over to 6 weeks.
After they get several months along the vets say it gets a little harder to pinpoint exactly.
I’ve had vets before call heifers that were two months bred open, and when I had them rechecked by another vet he said they were bred right along with the rest of the group,
I’ve also had cows calve a month or two earlier or later than they were called at palpation too. So it can be a toss up.

 

[Dave]

I bought about 60 cows this fall and early winter who were preg checked at one of two sales. One sale the vet sleeves them. The other one uses ultra sound. Their accuracy is about even. I bought them to have February - March calves. There was 2 born in December. 2 born in January. 8 born in February. 38 in March. So far 5 born in April and 5 more left to go. Hopefully the 5 left will all calf tomorrow.

 

[kenny thomas]

If it was an AI only herd the date should be just what they said.

 

[RDFF]

I'd lean pretty heavily on the paperwork... like @kenny thomas said. Most of the dairies are all AI, with a clean-up bull MAYBE. They listed her as "recently serviced, but not confirmed pregnant" (not far enough along to be able to confirm it at the time of sale). That's the date you want to be using, IMO.

 

[regolith]

A vet can easily be a couple of months out, past 5 - 6 months they might not feel the calf itself to assess size but instead rely on indicators of gestation stage.
And in my limited experiences some of those indicators aren't always as expected. I've been told past 6 - 7 months the cervix will be pulled down over the pelvic girdle and not being able to lift it back up is evidence of a large calf in there... I checked one that was due November and not springing, in November last year. Cervix pulled down, lifted it up there was some weight there not what I'd expect at 6months plus gestation... she calved mid-Jan.

I checked a heifer once that I thought was in-calf but wasn't springing, felt the calf under my hand, called it about 4 months (due Feb) and since I had a vet coming in a few days later asked him to pregcheck her to confirm. He called her 6 months - did not physically feel the calf. Calf arrived at the end of Feb. That was somewhat important because had she been 6 months her grazier would have been liable for letting a bull in with them at the wrong time (it's in the contract) wheras February meant she'd come home, lost her calf un-noticed somewhere in that time period, and my own weaner bull had quickly got her back in calf - no fault to the grazier.

In your situation. If you can I'd get back to the previous owner and check with them whether there was an earlier breed date, or whether she was in fact checked before the sale. If it's confirmed that she could be bred earlier, dry her off for the earlier date.
However usually an AI mating would be done on a standing heat, or set up with drugs that would likely abort any existing pregnancy. Cows in standing heat during pregnancy do happen but past the first month or so are so rare... I'd tend to presume the AI date to be correct.

 

[423]

Thank you everyone for the insight and opinions!

To help better understand, we milk about 30 cows in central Wisconsin (still using surge buckets/stainless steel pails to convey to the bulk tank) and run around 30-40 Cow Calf pairs.

I work off the farm as well. So it's a hectic lifestyle family farm.

Thanks for the insights everyone!