Sire prospect birth weight?

[Stocker Steve]

I looked at some potential herd sires yesterday. Nice calves out of related cows and the same bull, but their birth weights ranged from 73 to 90 pounds. Would this range be any concern to you when used on small frame mature cows?

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Would not bother me. Would kinda like to no what the average was.

 

[3MR]

Hmmmm, I would probably think twice on that one. I like the fact its a mature cow, but still, thats a big calf for a small frame. Im curious to hear what your actual thoughts are on it as you ponder the delima yourself.

What are the weaning weights? Does it average off or does it stay high? I think for me to give that a go it would require some pretty impressive weaning rates to make the risk even worth contemplating. Just the quick thought of the top of my head.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

73 to 90 lbs. 73 lbs on the low end is plenty small enough 90 lbs on the high end ain't that big if the ced on the bull is good. Must have been some middle ground in there some where and thats where you want to be. Mature cow that can't have a 90 lb calf needs to be headed for the sale barn.

 

[3MR]

Yeah, your probably right red bull. Id still like to know what the weaning weights are though. I guess im just conditioned mentaly to shoot for low birth weight high weaning weight.

 

[novaman]

Actual birthweights are of little use when selecting sires IMO. Environment and nutrition can heavily influence actual BW. Calving ease would be the big one to look at. This is why EPD's are very useful.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I just think that the middle of the road for about all traits is a good place to be novaman.

 

[fargus]

I just think that the middle of the road for about all traits is a good place to be novaman.

I agree. I also agree that CED is far more important than actual BW. Shape of the calf is at least as important as the weight of it.

 

[Oldtimer]

Well if it was me choosing- I'd go for one of the lighter BW- higher CED bulls...My cows calve out on their own with little supervision- and I like the lighter easier calving calves that come fast- and then have the vigor to be up and getting a belly full in a few minutes--especially in cold and stormy weather...

A lighter weight live calf is worth a whole lot more than a heavier weight dead one....

 

[3waycross]

I just think that the middle of the road for about all traits is a good place to be novaman.

Truer words were never spoken..............Moderation in all things. ;-)


i mighta lied a little bit..........i still like BIG butted women. :cowboy:

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Had alot of heifers to lay down and have 90 lb calves that were up and sucking in under 30 minutes.If you don't breed pinchassed cows that can't pass a beagle pup you won't have to many problems.

I just think that the middle of the road for about all traits is a good place to be novaman.

Truer words were never spoken..............Moderation in all things. ;-)

 

[Victoria]

What do your cows look like? Are you going to be checking them at regular intervals? What do you want your calves to wean off at? What does the bull actually look like, smooth or chunky shoulders and hips? What do you consider small framed? Were the cows that threw 90 lbs the larger ones or was it a crap shoot? A smooth bull throwing 90 lb calves with a stoutly made moderate cow is fine, a chunky bull throwing 90 lb calves to a narrow hipped cow could bring problems especially if you aren't around. BW is not the be all and end all it is one of the things to think of.
I'm Canadian so are BW are a little higher on average but when we had commercial cows I didn't mind those 125+ pound boys. I know there are people reading that ready to have an attack. ;-) Really though we had cows that could push them out without a problem and they would be huge by fall. There are curve benders who have tiny calves in spring and they grow like weeds but typically BW and WW are closely related. As a commercial person being paid by the pound I wanted my cows to perform to the best of their ability - having the highest BW that they could WITHOUT problems and therefore increasing the probability of weaning off the highest weighing calves they could. However, we were always around in case they did have trouble. Had we not been we would have sacrificed some of the BW and potential WW to keep our cows safe and producing.
BTW - do you weigh your calves? I just ask because a lot of people don't and they hear 90 pounds - it sounds big, until they weigh what they have at home.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Weighing calves will teach you that you can't guess as good as you think you could. I have moderate framed cows. Try use a bull with a good CED number and raise heifers with a good CEM. I like 80lb calves a few lbs more or less is ok with me.

 

[Roadapple]

Red Bull, you're exactly right on the weighing part. And the same could be said for frame score if they've never measured one.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Hmmmm, I would probably think twice on that one. I like the fact its a mature cow, but still, thats a big calf for a small frame. Im curious to hear what your actual thoughts are on it as you ponder the delima yourself. What are the weaning weights?

Straight bred Limi cows on alfalfa hay were delivering calves in the 90s. Largest was 98 pounds. "No problems, no pulls" according to the owner. Limi cows were bigger than mine running 1200 to 1600 pounds. Bull weaning weights were in the 700s. Lots of stretch.

My thought is that the same Limi bulls on baldy cows would average "smaller" calves in the high 80s. An occasional jumbo calf could be an issue. Expect another 75 pounds of weaning weight vs. small birth weight angus bulls...
Heifers would be bred AI for calving ease.

 

[bigag03]

In my opinion, the entire industry has selected too heavily on low birth weight over the last 5-10 years. With that, we have kept replacement heifers by these low birth weight bulls and in the next generation, a low birth weight cow and bull. These females that make up the bulk of the cow herds now aren't big enough or have the correct pelvic diameter to have even an average calf. With the fear of calving trouble in these heifers, you select a lower birth weight bull and the cycle gets worse. Any time you single trait select, you WILL get negative results in other areas.

I want heifers to have calves between 75 and 85 lbs (90+ doesn't scare me). With cows, I expect them to have any properly presented calf under 110 lbs. I'm not saying I want a bunch of 110 pounders (I would prefer less than 100 just for marketing purposes), but a cow should not have a problem with it.

 

[dun]

In my opinion, the entire industry has selected too heavily on low birth weight over the last 5-10 years. With that, we have kept replacement heifers by these low birth weight bulls and in the next generation, a low birth weight cow and bull. These females that make up the bulk of the cow herds now aren't big enough or have the correct pelvic diameter to have even an average calf. With the fear of calving trouble in these heifers, you select a lower birth weight bull and the cycle gets worse. Any time you single trait select, you WILL get negative results in other areas.

I want heifers to have calves between 75 and 85 lbs (90+ doesn't scare me). With cows, I expect them to have any properly presented calf under 110 lbs. I'm not saying I want a bunch of 110 pounders (I would prefer less than 100 just for marketing purposes), but a cow should not have a problem with it.

While there are a lot of low BW bulls that have daughters with poor calving ease, there are still a lot that have calving ease with daughters that also have calving ease. A low BW bull isn;t always a calving problem waiting to happen. There are probably as many higher BW bulls that have daughters that are calving problems just waiting to happen.

 

[bigag03]

Dun,

I understand and somewhat agree with your post. However, I still have NO use for a 50 pould calf. They never catch up.

 

[dun]

Dun,

I understand and somewhat agree with your post. However, I still have NO use for a 50 pould calf. They never catch up.

Wrong genetics then. With 3 months of drought and the heaviest calf being 75 pounds and the lightest 60 our avergae adjusted weaning weight was still a tick over 600 lbs.
But we've selected for those kinds of genetics and those that will perform on the high endophyte fescue.

 

[bigag03]

But how did the 60 pounders compare to the 75 pounders? There are lots of curve bending genetics, but why fight genetic correlations with extreme intensity. Middle of the road will be the best bet all the way around.