Sinclair Rito Legacy

[Badlands]

When they measure it, be sure they send it to you.

He probably looks small compared to the rest ;-) ?

Didn't you say rep?

He got it wrong, BTW, there was data submitted for SC and the US EPD you mentioned. I would have thought that if someone did work for RB, they would know that.


Badlands

 

[DOC HARRIS]

He's a great prospect.

I saw him this Summer right after he came out of the cows.

He should help straighten out the 036 and 1407 influence.

I am using him.


Badlands

Just my opinion, but with the "Phenotype" of R R Rito 707 and Ideal 4465 of 6807 4286 that close, the Funnel Butts that 1407 and 036 are producing are going to be nullified (HOPEFULLY!!). The HINDQUARTERS of RR Rito 707 and that great daughter of 6807 has GOT to stop the lack of muscle that has slunk its way into the Angus breed! SOMETHING had better be done darned quick, or the Angus Influence is going to become a negative instead of a positive! This bull is a smart infusion into the gene pool!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Badlands]

There are two things I find a little bit unfortunate about the situation, Doc.

1) The folks that use him to "fix" the crappy bulls will make more money off of him and market more bulls than the folks that use him on cow that are already like him in terms of phenotype and maternal function.

2) That 1407, etc will be perceived as "fixing" his growth and carcass, when in reality, he is fixing maternal qualities lacking in the popular bulls. Maternal qualities are #1, but the credit will go to the growth and marbling bulls, rather than the maternal-type better structured bull.


Badlands

 

[Frankie]

There are two things I find a little bit unfortunate about the situation, Doc.

1) The folks that use him to "fix" the crappy bulls will make more money off of him and market more bulls than the folks that use him on cow that are already like him in terms of phenotype and maternal function.

2) That 1407, etc will be perceived as "fixing" his growth and carcass, when in reality, he is fixing maternal qualities lacking in the popular bulls. Maternal qualities are #1, but the credit will go to the growth and marbling bulls, rather than the maternal-type better structured bull.


Badlands

Ain't it awful.

 

[Badlands]

frankie,

If you don't get it, it's not my problem.


Badlands

 

[DOC HARRIS]

There are two things I find a little bit unfortunate about the situation, Doc.

1) The folks that use him to "fix" the crappy bulls will make more money off of him and market more bulls than the folks that use him on cow that are already like him in terms of phenotype and maternal function.

2) That 1407, etc will be perceived as "fixing" his growth and carcass, when in reality, he is fixing maternal qualities lacking in the popular bulls. Maternal qualities are #1, but the credit will go to the growth and marbling bulls, rather than the maternal-type better structured bull.


Badlands

Ain't it awful.

frankie- YES! It IS awful! It is awful that you are so "BARN BLIND" and "Angus prejudiced" that you are willing to overlook the facts that are hitting you square in the face and continue to exacerbate SOME (not ALL) of the Genetic and Phenotype problems which have been confronting SOME ( not ALL) of the bloodlines of the Black Angus Breed for 20 years or so! It IS awful that circumstances, GREED, and focusing on only two or three traits or characteristics of the Angus breed to the exclusion of a few other necessary traits which are imperative for a COMPLETE BALANCING of ALL beef traits in order to comprise an expectation of success and profit in a business, have come about to such an extent that a few of the great characteristics that the Angus Breed used to be so proud of ( calving ease, yearling weight, SENSIBLE milk production, cow Energy Value, MODERATE size ) are now getting so OUT of balance that OTHER traits (Fertility, adequate muscle, depth of hindquarters, mature weight, difficult calving, marbling, and others) are suffering, and the supremecy and reputation of the breed in general is beginning to take a hit.

It IS awful that you refuse to even think and admit that the foregoing is a possibility! It IS awful that you continue to rant and sarcastically intimate that those of us who perceive this tendency of the Angus Breed to lose moderate size, respect of other breeds and breeders, and respectability as an ENTIRE BREED taken as an entirety have, somehow, lost touch with reality! It IS awful that you are so 'hung up" on the purity and aristocracy of the Black Angus Breed - as a whole - that you repudiate, out of hand, the undeniable facts that SOME (not ALL) of the Angus bloodlines have lost some of the characteristics of which the breeder's were proud, and upon which they were eager to capitalize!

It IS awful that mediocrity, indifference and arrogance has infiltrated SOME (not ALL) of the at-one-time respectable, admirable and unselfish seedstock producers to the extent that the entire breed is beginning to suffer needlessly. frankie, you sharply criticized a post of mine several months ago for expressing the foregoing opinion, but criticism and sarcasm will not obviate actuality. I am not predicting the demise of the Black Angus breed, but I have seen and experienced the ALMOST destruction of the Angus breed in the past, and the symptoms and signs which were present then are rearing their ugly heads now, and I deplore it!

It IS awful that these past mistakes are being propounded again - not the same mistakes, but Genetic excesses which MAY intensify other Genetic and Phenotypic anomalies. Manipulating DNA and hereditary Genes are tenuous endeavors, and because of the long time involved in the cattle species for determination of success or failure, breeding decisions regarding matings must NOT be made lightly. It requires too much time to "turn the ship around", so to speak, if mistakes are made.

It IS awful that mistakes HAVE been made, and are continuing to be made!

It IS awful that some people who should know better refuse to see the forest for the trees!

It IS awful that we should even be in a position to be discussing these subjects.

Ain't it AWFUL!!

DOC HARRIS

 

[MikeC]

Gee Doc. Why don't you tell us what you REALLY think? ;-)

 

[Badlands]

Thanks Doc. I appreciate your perspective, having watched the industry for many, many years.

From time to time, I sure disagree with some of your opinions, like everybody of course, but I do agree wholeheartedly with the opinion you offered on this subject.

Most of the folks on these boards are only part-timers and short-timers, myself included. But, it doesn't take too much to sort the experienced folks from the blowhards.

I think you just did that.


Badlands

 

[Frankie]

But, it doesn't take too much to sort the experienced folks from the blowhards.

I think you just did that.


Badlands

I think he did, too.

 

[Badlands]

Yeah, frankie, he did.

The difference is that you didn't respond until I did. ;-)

You had time, you were posting on other message lines.

Being nasty isn't particularly difficult, frankie. But none too flattering, either.

It's called mud-slinging because both parties get dirty.

Badlands

 

[ENNOT]

In my opinion, there doesn't seem to be much of anything wrong with that bull. I think alot of people would be real suprised on the frame scores of alot of bulls they use. Most easy keeping, functional cattle are frame 5 to 6.

And the scrotal epd is a tool, if he has measured at 44 cm, that is not related to his SC epd indepently. Look at his bloodlines, they are very old and that has alot to do with his epds. I remember a couple of years ago whe n they did some different that changed how the epds were calculated, we had a bunch of older bloodline and older aged cows, drop and get get epds that don't show how good of cattle they are.

I think that bull would definitely help some of these framy, no muscled Angus. You can't use the new hot bulls all the time, sometimes you have to go back and use something that is functional. Something that is an outcross pedigree to anything you have in your herd. Especially in the Angus where almost every top bull is related somewhere in the bloodlines.

 

[Angus In Texas]

I definitely agree that angus cattle have gotten away from what has got them to where they are today and this bull adresses a lot of those issues but the biggest question I have is do any of ya'll think that there is one thing in particular about this bull that will allow him to stand out from the crowd when compared to many other bulls who are phenotypically sound with similar EPD's.

The biggest reason angus cattle have taken such a phenotypic dive in recent years in my opinion is because everyone is looking for something that stands out above the crowd so that they are able to market the bull better. In other words make more money without worrying about the consequences down the road.

The biggest ribeye, highest IMF, heaviest weaning and yearling weights are all things that sell. They most often are not the best choices for sires but when someone only has data on paper to make their decision with its hard not to go with the bull that will give you the best chance at having an outlier yourself.

To sum it up I feel like the commercial cowman has to start demanding a better product from the Angus producers. If they continue to pay good money for what is produced then nothing will be accomplished.

 

[Badlands]

His pedigree sticks out. He's not a junk-yard dog with a mixed pedigree like 90% of the AI bulls.

Other than that, only his uncommonly good phenotype and correctness is what sets him apart.

He excels at the things EPD don't measure.

You said "many other bulls that are phenotypically sound with similar EPD."

The point I would make is that there are not very many AI bulls that ARE phenotypically/functionally sound, similar EPD or not. Lot's of talk about being sound, but most of them are pretty trashy bulls, if not in terms of function, then certainly in terms of pedigree.

Badlands

 

[badroute]

I recently purchased a few bulls from a breeder that has never waivered from using the older bloodlines. These bulls are chalk full of red meat and moderate in frame. I figure these bulls will sire some very functional cattle that add weight in the form of red meat rather than frame.

The thing about these bulls is their EPD's are not impressive at all. Their WW EPD's are only slightly higher than the milk EPD's of some of the various semen companies top bulls. Their production EPD's are indeed inferior to those of our present day sires but their Maternal EPD's are superior to those of our present day sires.

The question I ask is why are most using Black Angus bulls? Is it to produce superior maternal momma cows as the breed was originally intended, or is it to just to geta black hided calf in order to quench the industrys thirst for black hided calves that grow like weeds.

The two choices, while neither wrong, will definetly require completely different bull types and I'm not sure there is one bull that can accomplish both. It all depends on your priorities.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This is the very factor that makes cross-breeding attractive for achieving heterosis, and seeking the best of two worlds.

DOC HARRIS

 

[BA]

Badroute - I would be interested to know the breeder you are talking about. PM if you don't want to post it. Thanks!

 

[Oldtimer]

I was surfing the web- and came across this old thread... I have had some good results from the Rito Legacy 3R9 son I used- Whitney Creek Legacy 726T-- 15800327 ... Unfortunately he got wire cut pretty bad- and I was only able to use him 2 years...
But I did keep a half dozen heifers out of him-- This is one of them as a yearling... These were all first calvers last spring- and look like they will make good momma cows...

L B B Pidge 125 #17049643

And I did get a son out of him that has turned into a good bull- and is my main herdsire: Lazy Bar B Juanada Rito 06X-- 16741353 (traces back to RR Rito 707 more than 20 times)... His first batch of heifers will calve this spring...

Here is a picture of "Juan" singing to the girls...


Just curious if anyone else has had any more recent involvement with Legacy or Rito 707...

If I get a chance I'll try and get some more pictures of his this years crop of calves...

 

[gizmom]

We had a 3R9 bull calf born yesterday out of a first calf heifer 11 days early and 58 pounds. He sure works on heifers past experience is limited two pregnancies one 2010 still in the herd expecting her second calf, the other heifer had a set of twins she raised them but they didn't make the cut to stay. I can't remember if we have anymore 3R9's coming this year. We have a grandson of 707 Sinclair Rito 9R9 that we really like, our bull customers sure seem to find his calves.

 

[Oldtimer]

While checking the pastures today- I took a few pictures of the "Juan" sired calves...

The one "potential carrier" cow I still have to test for DD (W C R Celtic Beauty 013X # 16769947)- with her nice big "Juan" (Lazy Bar B Juanada Rito 06X #16741353) heifer calf (which will probably become a replacement)...


Cole Creek Juanada Rain 127W #16453125 with a "Juan" sired heifer calf...


A first calf heifer L B B Pidge 125 #17049643 with her heifer calf..


A bull calf out of W C R Mary 845U #16175571- again sired by "Juan"... Mary 845U is a little 4 frame cow that will probably never weigh over 1200 lbs- but has had 2 heifer calves that averaged 625 lbs at weaning and a bull calf that weighed 698 lbs...
Can't ask for much more! She is the cow that became clean when Fairfield Hi Guy tested clean about 8 generations back- and saved me testing her and her daughters -- and a son Lazy Bar B Bannon 2 BY #17049646 that I used quite a bit this spring...



A bull calf out of Lazy Bar B Lady Blackbird #16065897... She's far from my idea of the perfect cow- but she sure raises some nice calves which compensates for a lot... She's raised 2 heifer calves with weaning weights right at 600 and a bull calf that weaned off at 799 (no creep)...


Several of the "Juan" sired calves... The bull in the front I believe is out of Galpin Miss Lead On 561 789 #15838109

 

[gizmom]

Oldtimer

Really nice looks like Juan is doing you a great job! I love little cows that can wean off that kind of calf, just goes to show she has the most important tool maternal power. I really like the herd sire he is the total package.

Gizmom