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farmboy80":pdkvp0wb said:
So, I'm confused. What's the difference in cross breed and hybrids? Everyone says they want hybrid vigor, so isn't the cross breeds?
Hybred vigor comes in the F-1 cross or completely maximized in the 3 way cross after that it goes out the windows
A crossbred bull is not anywhere close to a standardized composite breed that will breed true and predictable in the breed.
Brangus is a breed developed through generations of breeding to predictable results.
Breed an Angus to a Brahman you don't have a Brangus you have a F-1 with no predictably on a herd of cows.
 
You get hybrid vigor from hetrosis.
You can get hetrosis within the same breed and you can get very little hetrosis by crossing two different breeds.
Hybrid vigor is great for a terminal cross but not great for multi generational consistency. If you want consistency you want the opposite, or homozygous.
To say that breeds like the black Hereford are genetically a composite is pushing it. They can be every bit as inconsistent in offspring as a f1 or f2 Hereford/angus cross.
I don't care how good a bull looks ,if he is registered ,if he is the result of an out cross and has a lower inbred coefficient he isn't going to pass on his desired traits at a high enough rate for me to be any more interested in using him then I would a non registered black baldy bull that is the result of a total outcross.
Some times I think people put way to much focus on if he is registered. Rather then does he have the ability to pass on the desired traits I want in his offspring.
DNA doesn't care if it comes from a registered animal or not . The same scientific rules apply .
 
You get hybrid vigor from hetrosis.
You can get hetrosis within the same breed and you can get very little hetrosis by crossing two different breeds.
Uhh, actually you have this bass-ackwards.
Hybrid vigor is great for a terminal cross but not great for multi generational consistency. If you want consistency you want the opposite, or homozygous.
To say that breeds like the black Hereford are genetically a composite is pushing it. They can be every bit as inconsistent in offspring as a f1 or f2 Hereford/angus cross.
I don't care how good a bull looks ,if he is registered ,if he is the result of an out cross and has a lower inbred coefficient he isn't going to pass on his desired traits at a high enough rate for me to be any more interested in using him then I would a non registered black baldy bull that is the result of a total outcross.
There is no registry for black baldies. Black baldies are 1/2 Angus and 1/2 Hereford. If someone used a black baldy bull, then 1/2 of its sperm will be Angus, and 1/2 will be hereford. The result would be the same as using 2 bulls in the herd..1 Angus and 1 Hereford.
 
Not totally correct, Warren.
Due to gene reassortment, the semen from that 1/2 Angus-1/2 Hereford bull won't be 50% Angus sperm and 50% Hereford sperm. Every sperm cell will have a different mix of Angus and Herford genes. Hence, the unpredictability of breeding value in a F1 bull.
 
That would be the last piece of shyt no matter how good they looked on my cows. The DNA in that woodpile could be nuclear. I can't sell dead calves and I dam sure don't want to wreck good cows.
Caustic> I appreciate your clarity!
 
Please pay attention to the following quote in the above article
"Just because it's a stable cross (Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, Brangus, etc.) does not guarantee you have hybrid vigor," he says. He points to Brangus as a breed where through the selection for specific traits, specifically a focus on carcass traits, the Angus alleles have been stacked.

An allele is one of the possible forms of a gene. Most genes have two alleles, a dominant and a recessive. If a cow has both a dominant and recessive allele (heterozygous for that trait), she will express the dominant trait.

"In other words, over time, she becomes more like an Angus than a Brahman. You lose the very things you are trying to get with heterosis -- fitness, disease resistance, tolerance to parasites, suitability for southern climates. You are removing Brahman alleles and replacing them with Angus as you select for those Angus-dominant traits."
 
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Uhh, actually you have this bass-ackwards.
Nope
Hybrid vigor is the result of heterosis . Meaning the genes at the same location are dissimilar (not homozygous)
If you are still seeing improvements in offspring in a 3 way cross it is because you didn't achieve heterosis in the first cross . And the two parents of the f1 didn't have enough genetic variation from each other.
The more homozygous a parent is the more predictable and similar the offspring will be . The more heterozygous a parent is the less predictable and more variable the offspring will be.
 
So when you buy a Brangus Bull how do you know if its Brangus bred to Brangus bred to Brangus vs first generation Brangus? Is one more stable than the other?
You know by its IBBA registration papers. Brangus is a breed. Just like Hereford, or Holstein,. etc. Has been for over 80 years. They were developed from Angus and Brahman..5/8th Angus and 3/8ths Brahman. Crossing an Angus and a Brahma does NOT give you a Brangus. It gives you a Br X Ang crossbred. Using a Brangus bull will give you a calf that is half Brangus. Using a BR x Ang cross , cow or bull, will give you a calf that will be half Brahman or half Angus.
 
You know by its IBBA registration papers. Brangus is a breed. Just like Hereford, or Holstein,. etc. Has been for over 80 years. They were developed from Angus and Brahman..5/8th Angus and 3/8ths Brahman. Crossing an Angus and a Brahma does NOT give you a Brangus. It gives you a Br X Ang crossbred. Using a Brangus bull will give you a calf that is half Brangus. Using a BR x Ang cross , cow or bull, will give you a calf that will be half Brahman or half Angus.
And what percent of brangus today is genetically angus and what percent of brangus today is genetically brahman?
You would most likely get more hybrid vigior/heterosis from a cross between a angus mated to a f1 angus/brahman cross Then you would from the offspring from an angus mated to a brangus.
If you really want to create a cross with the most hybrid vigor then breed associations should start publishing . Degree of relatedness/inbred coefficient of each animal. And publish the genotype. So you could actually pick a animal to mate with that would produce the best hybrid vigor . Instead of using some made up numbers using a mathmatical algorithm that has no genetic basis and changes over time.
 
Please pay attention to the following in the above article

Line 1 Herefords

In some instances, herds were intentionally inbred or line-bred, such as the research project begun in 1934 at the ARS Fort Keogh Livestock and Range Research Laboratory in Miles City, Montana.

"This study with Herefords resulted in some animals that were more than 40 percent inbred. Line 1 Herefords are an example of a successful line-breeding program that was able to maintain high relationship coefficients with a common ancestor (Advance Domino 13) while keeping average inbreeding coefficients relatively low (less than 10 percent)," says Gonda.

The idea was to create inbred lines that could later be crossed with unrelated inbred lines, as a way to capture more heterosis – and produce a consistent product by crossing inbred lines within a breed.
 
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