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Serious Breeding Problem. Bad Bull - Open Cows

imafancyhummer

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Looking for suggestions from the other side of the fence. We purchased a bull at last springs Bull sale. The bull was a dud. We followed all the philosophy. Bull bought sold sus. Put him with 35 head of healthy cows and got only 20% pre :( g. What would you do? What do we do with 29 open cows? We are out some serious money this year. So what I asking here is IF you were in our shoes NOW. What would you do? :help:
 

KNERSIE

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Speak with Kit Pharo, he can probably do something about it, the rest of us can't do anything.
 

Frankie

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I agree with KNERSIE. Talk to Kit Pharo. Bad mouthing a breeder on the internet isn't likely to get your problems solved.
 

KNERSIE

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Frankie":c3t2cgko said:
I agree with KNERSIE. Talk to Kit Pharo. Bad mouthing a breeder on the internet isn't likely to get your problems solved.

We've got to stop agreeing, Frankie, I'm starting to get worried ;-)
 

Chris H

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imafancyhummer":1bbxmxe8 said:
Looking for suggestions from the other side of the fence. We purchased a bull at last springs Bull sale. The bull was a dud. We followed all the philosophy. Bull bought sold sus. Put him with 35 head of healthy cows and got only 20% pre :( g. What would you do? What do we do with 29 open cows? We are out some serious money this year. So what I asking here is IF you were in our shoes NOW. What would you do? :help:

Now would be a real good time to look at selling any marginal cows that are open.
Are the cows all registered, or commercial stock? If commercial, do you have generations of breeding you want to keep, or not?
You've got some woulda/coulda/shoulda items to keep in mind for the future.
I assume the bull was tested, and since he settled some he likely had an illness or injury that you didn't catch during breeding. You might share some responsibility for the open cows in that case.
 

randiliana

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Chris H":6kb06tdf said:
imafancyhummer":6kb06tdf said:
Looking for suggestions from the other side of the fence. We purchased a bull at last springs Bull sale. The bull was a dud. We followed all the philosophy. Bull bought sold sus. Put him with 35 head of healthy cows and got only 20% pre :( g. What would you do? What do we do with 29 open cows? We are out some serious money this year. So what I asking here is IF you were in our shoes NOW. What would you do? :help:

Now would be a real good time to look at selling any marginal cows that are open.
Are the cows all registered, or commercial stock? If commercial, do you have generations of breeding you want to keep, or not?
You've got some woulda/coulda/shoulda items to keep in mind for the future.
I assume the bull was tested, and since he settled some he likely had an illness or injury that you didn't catch during breeding. You might share some responsibility for the open cows in that case.

Or, the bull just didn't have the libido, didn't have enough extension and couldn't breed a cow or any # of things. Have heard of bulls that would only mount the cow's head. True story. But, whatever the case, this IS something to take up with the breeder FIRST. Pregchecking could have saved you a lot of time and money, as well as observation during the breeding season.
 

regolith

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Pregchecking could have saved you a lot of time and money, as well as observation during the breeding season.

Well yes. I mean, this exact thing happened in my herd 2 springs ago, and four weeks after the bull was put with the herd I knew about it... I know I'm running a very different system and all, but it kind of makes sense to observe whether the cows settle.
So at the time (halfway through the breeding season) I figured I had three options. Get a new bull. Take the risk that it's teething problems that'll average out soon and do nothing. AI the cycling cows.

I went with AI, with good results.
So I guess your cows should be calving now? Get the ones that haven't calved and aren't cycling preg-checked if you haven't done so, then decide whether to sell the open cows and buy in feeders, or keep the cows to have another go at calving next year.
If it was me, I'd be looking at the financials. Probably those will dictate - sell the cows. Then you can decide - grow a crop, grow calves, take an easy year and cut hay, keep stock for someone else... whatever appeals and is practical.
 

jcarkie

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most breeders guarantee for one year, or first breeding season. they may want to retest the bull.i would have him tested myself to find out. i would probably hold the better cows since it wasn't thier fault. it will be hard to make up for lost income from calves good luck. i have thought about what i would do, i hope i don't have to find out. i use one bull with each group.
 

marimus

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Agree that you need to get that bull tested, although it may not be his fault.

I'm not sure what your vaccination regime is, or even what diseases you get over there, but something like leptospirosis or vibriosis could cause this same problem.
 

novatech

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imafancyhummer":2yn10rpi said:
Looking for suggestions from the other side of the fence. We purchased a bull at last springs Bull sale. The bull was a dud. We followed all the philosophy. Bull bought sold sus. Put him with 35 head of healthy cows and got only 20% pre :( g. What would you do? What do we do with 29 open cows? We are out some serious money this year. So what I asking here is IF you were in our shoes NOW. What would you do? :help:
Go look in the mirror and say; This is nobodies fault but mine. I will learn to be more successful. If I buy another bull I will have him tested on the way home. I will watch my cattle closely to see if they continue cycling. I will palpate my cows or have it done. I will run a business not a hobby or run my hobby like a business. I will sell any cow not bred in a 90 day breeding season.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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novatech":1qzf17o3 said:
imafancyhummer":1qzf17o3 said:
Looking for suggestions from the other side of the fence. We purchased a bull at last springs Bull sale. The bull was a dud. We followed all the philosophy. Bull bought sold sus. Put him with 35 head of healthy cows and got only 20% pre :( g. What would you do? What do we do with 29 open cows? We are out some serious money this year. So what I asking here is IF you were in our shoes NOW. What would you do? :help:
Go look in the mirror and say; This is nobodies fault but mine. I will learn to be more successful. If I buy another bull I will have him tested on the way home. I will watch my cattle closely to see if they continue cycling. I will palpate my cows or have it done. I will run a business not a hobby or run my hobby like a business. I will sell any cow not bred in a 90 day breeding season.
Ouch :shock: but oh so true.
 

mnmtranching

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Having 29 open cows there must have been riding, cows in heat all Fall, Winter long. Did you notice this?
My guess is the bull got injured, maybe in the back legs. What kind of shape was he in, in the Fall? If I were you and still want to continue with cattle, I would sell the open cows and use the money to by breds or pairs. Get quality right away. At least you will have some producing cattle.
 

bigbull338

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well i know this as fact.you need to sell that bull pronto.an buy another bull.an turn him out on your cows.an get them bred.the hard fact is you lost a calf crop fooling with that bull.so you just start over with a new bull.because replacing 29 cows is to costly.
 

ChrisB

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I would think in the current market that you could sell your culls and buy back bred cows for close to the same money if you have commercial cows that weigh up pretty good.

A 1400 pound cull cow sold at $54 would net around $700 after trucking and commision. For another $100 I would think you could find some decent breds. Maybe less depending on your local market.
 

Frankie

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KNERSIE":ugjwq6pv said:
Frankie":ugjwq6pv said:
I agree with KNERSIE. Talk to Kit Pharo. Bad mouthing a breeder on the internet isn't likely to get your problems solved.

We've got to stop agreeing, Frankie, I'm starting to get worried ;-)

Hey, when you're right, you're right. :)
 

milkmaid

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Could be it's not even the bull's problem.... poor nutrition to the cows and rampant disease will affect your pregnancy rates too. Don't be so quick to lay the blame on the bull.

And I agree with novatech.
 

Angus Cowman

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bigbull338":3fd2kzu1 said:
well i know this as fact.you need to sell that bull pronto.an buy another bull.an turn him out on your cows.an get them bred.the hard fact is you lost a calf crop fooling with that bull.so you just start over with a new bull.because replacing 29 cows is to costly.
How do you know for a fact that it is a problem with the bull at all
I don't see how anyone setting behind a computer miles away can say anything like this for FACT
it could be a problem with the cows it could be a nutrition problem or a # of other problems so NO one can say for fact what the problem is until this owner has a vet out and checks the bull and the cows
 

bigbull338

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heres the reasons why i said sale the bull.1 they just bought the bull from a sale.so he shouldve passed a BSE with an 85 or better.2 theres no way in heck 29 cows can all have probs that will prevent them from breeding.3 so that tells me that something happened to the bull.now to prove the point the bull needs tobe retested.an i bet he will come in shooting blanks.
 

KNERSIE

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I'll say it again as someone who gives a guarantee when selling bulls....

Speak with Kit Pharo, its very likely that this scenario has happened in the past and PCC will likely have a procedure to follow to determine the root of the problem to hopefully rectify the problem or come to a solution acceptable for both parties. No breeder wants to drop a customer in an hour of need and I'm sure Kit Pharo won't either. For him to be able to help you you need to speak with him frankly and also tell him about your herd and management. Be honest and open and curteous, nobody will knowingly sell you a bull with a problem, but problems can arise later as well and although that wouldn't strictly be the breeder's problem he'll very likely help you out anyway.

I always tell my bullbuyers that if there is a problem to speak to me rather than to speak to their neighbour as I shall likely be able to do something about it, but their neighbour probably can't.

Be prepared that a vet will probably be involved and if the bull proves to be neglected and mismanaged the breeder won't take kindly to being badmouthed on the internet. If the vet's diagnosis is that their is indeed a problem with the bull the bill should go to the breeder, if the bull proves to be healthy, fertile and capable of breeding the vet bill will be for you pocket.

Whatever you do, speak with Kit Pharo first before spreading the rumour, you might just be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.
 

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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First - how does everyone know he bought it from Kit?? was this discussed in a previous thread?
2nd - poster has not been back. imafancyhummer posted back on 3-31 and hasn't been back. :shock:
 

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