Hi I am very new to this sort of thing (the forum) ... I have a first calf heifer, she is not quite 3 yet calved in December. We raise our heifers in a bedded pack barn and they are out on pasture in the summer, when they are close to calving they go to a tie stall barn. This heifer never stood in a tie stall barn and she is completely wrecking herself. She is now back at home on the bedded pack, but she has damaged herself to the point I am not sure what else I can do to help her. She has a very swollen hind leg, she is on antibiotics, she calved in with mastitis in 3 quarters and all but one we have cleared up so we are treating that. My question is has anyone had animals that have not been able to make it in a tie stall? and what can I do to help her? should I wrap the leg or let it drain? she has an awefully big open wound right on her hock, I have been putting peroxide on it keep it clean, but not sure this is working, since I can't poor it on her every second of the day. Please help.. thanks
Self Destructing Cow
- Thread starter Jaymar503
- Start date
Help Support CattleToday:
Why do you have her in a tie stall? Dairy? Where are you located? Is the calf still on/with her? I am not a fan of peroxide unless it is used initially to clean debris ~ it has been shown to destroy new skin/tissue, I would recommend a microbial which you can find at a local feed store. Is there an infection (temperature)? I would guess the swelling is due to tissue damage rather than a build up of infection, so I would not recommend lancing anything. She should be put in a box stall if you need to have her contained in order to treat her, or even a corral would work better than a tie stall. Wrapping the leg should not keep it from draining, so I would recommend wrapping it to keep it clean if she is contained. If you are not able, for whatever reason, to change the wrapping, then leave it unwrapped and keep her in a clean place. Antibiotics? Hows the calf? Where are you located (state)? It appears I have asked more questions than I have answered, but it will help us to help you.Jaymar503":32nwyvih said:
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
Angie, your questions are some of the same ones I have plus more. Don't understand putting an animal in any type of restraint, pen or other facility unless they are in trouble and need help. Stress alone has to be really bad on them. You read about it all the time on this forum and I do not understand the reasoning.
If I were to pen my cows when they are about to calf, I am sure some would "self destruct".
If I were to pen my cows when they are about to calf, I am sure some would "self destruct".
regolith
Well-known member
Is she a dairy heifer?
Sounds like major temperament issues and the short answer is... sometimes you can't fix them. Relatively rare, but when they get to that point there's no choice but to let them go.
If you're putting dairy heifers into tie stalls I'm going to hazard a guess that you know the tricks for training them. For this one... swollen leg because she's been bashing it into the wall is okay, keep her in the bedded area and calm and the swelling will go down. Not the case if she's injured it and I can't tell you if she has or not over the internet. Antibiotics will take care of any infection in the gash.
Graft calves on if you can't milk her and can't cull her. Stating your location either as you post or by editing your profile really helps people give advice too.
Sounds like major temperament issues and the short answer is... sometimes you can't fix them. Relatively rare, but when they get to that point there's no choice but to let them go.
If you're putting dairy heifers into tie stalls I'm going to hazard a guess that you know the tricks for training them. For this one... swollen leg because she's been bashing it into the wall is okay, keep her in the bedded area and calm and the swelling will go down. Not the case if she's injured it and I can't tell you if she has or not over the internet. Antibiotics will take care of any infection in the gash.
Graft calves on if you can't milk her and can't cull her. Stating your location either as you post or by editing your profile really helps people give advice too.
thanks for the posts... she is a dairy heifer and we are upstate NY and tie stall barns are mostly what we have up here... it gets pretty cold in the winter and we barn up our animals instead of leaving them out. she was born in a tie stall but we moved her in our bedded pack barn when she was just days old. she never stood in a tie stall all... I know its a mental thing when you move a big heifer like her into a small tie stall, she doesn't think she has room to move around or lunge to get up... she just couldn't put it together... she is a Holstein and very well grown animal which made it even worse.... we also have Milking Shorthorn dairy cows and they seem to adjust better than my Holsteins... they are smaller and little more hardy... this Holstein cow family of mine has never been very thrifty... her Mother did the same thing as she was doing but I was able to bring her home... at our farm we do not have the facility to milk, so our milk cows and we only have 5... milked on another farm.... on another note she isn't restrained at all she is a big big bow stall with lots of bedding, hence bedding pack.... and yes I suppose a tie stall barn is sort of a restraint but they are milk cows. okay thanks for the post and hope this bit of info helps for more info.. thanks very much
suzorse
Well-known member
was she trained to be tied before she went into the tie stall,as I also have dairy cows ,but mine are all trained to lead and be tied as heifers, if not she need to be trained to be tied up first, tie her up with a halter to a stout post while she gets her grain ,and just continue longer each time, if she will sleep in a freestall then she just needs to be taught to stand tied , mine are never tied up as my milk barn is off my pasture,but they are tied at milking time,the cow I just had calve in Dec is still staying in my calving corral with her calf and I walk her to the barn 2 times a day for milking
Suzanne
Suzanne
She ties and leads, she was a show cow, the problem is that she was too big for the dairy barn that she had to go too, the stalls were not made for Holsteins, and that she never stood in a tie stall barn before. she was raised on a bedded pack, plenty of lunging room, no cow right next to her, and no cement under her, the barn she went to did have mats in the stalls, but it wasn't enough.
regolith
Well-known member
So when she goes to the tie-stall she is in someone else's care?
That's a difficult situation to make headway with. She's already panicked and it's not likely that a handler who doesn't own her will be prepared to spend the time helping her settle.
Obviously you need to keep milking her somehow... I'm guessing if you can treat her mastitis you can also hand milk her, you might want to look into what other dairies are around that might have her.
For the tie stall building, is there a corner stall with more room that she could use, or would giving her the full double space with no other cow help? Usually the other cow helps settle them. If it's an enclosed area and the cows are there all the time (not just milking), I'd be inclined to let her heal up, take her back there and not tie her, she can lie on the floors if she must till she's had time to see how the other cows behave.
Now I'm wondering if we only did stuff like that in the dark ages... the one I milked in the cows went out to feed in the day but after night milking in winter they just stayed in their stalls, bedded down with straw. I've seen a few old milking byres in Britain with beef cows or calf-feeder Friesians living in the stalls.
That's a difficult situation to make headway with. She's already panicked and it's not likely that a handler who doesn't own her will be prepared to spend the time helping her settle.
Obviously you need to keep milking her somehow... I'm guessing if you can treat her mastitis you can also hand milk her, you might want to look into what other dairies are around that might have her.
For the tie stall building, is there a corner stall with more room that she could use, or would giving her the full double space with no other cow help? Usually the other cow helps settle them. If it's an enclosed area and the cows are there all the time (not just milking), I'd be inclined to let her heal up, take her back there and not tie her, she can lie on the floors if she must till she's had time to see how the other cows behave.
Now I'm wondering if we only did stuff like that in the dark ages... the one I milked in the cows went out to feed in the day but after night milking in winter they just stayed in their stalls, bedded down with straw. I've seen a few old milking byres in Britain with beef cows or calf-feeder Friesians living in the stalls.
The gentleman that we bring our cows too has as much compassion for his animals as I do and he would not slack off in his care for just because she isn't his... we also have a few of his cows at our barn for R&R... we have great relationship with this man... and does everything he can for our cows....
So when this heifer came in she came in milk early had a bull calf, cleaned, but came in with mastitis, which leads me and him to beleive that she may have gotten sucked on as baby, we do raise our heifers together in pens, so this is possible, though I did not see any of them sucking her, so anyways because of calving early, she didn't make much of an udder, since she has the bad case of mastitis we are drying her off and trying again at later time.... my concern RIGHT NOW is her swelled up leg.... what can I do for it???? she is not in the tie stall barn anymore she back at our place in a very large bedded pack pen by herself, she can not get up on her own, she is getting antibiotics because we believe she has an infection in the leg, we are lifting her up and making her stand for a bit to eat and drink, last night we got her up and I walked her around, she walked around willingly, but does not put much weight on that back leg..... what can I try???? hot packs. ... cold packs.... wrapping??? stronger antibiotic??? just looking for some suggestions.... thanks
So when this heifer came in she came in milk early had a bull calf, cleaned, but came in with mastitis, which leads me and him to beleive that she may have gotten sucked on as baby, we do raise our heifers together in pens, so this is possible, though I did not see any of them sucking her, so anyways because of calving early, she didn't make much of an udder, since she has the bad case of mastitis we are drying her off and trying again at later time.... my concern RIGHT NOW is her swelled up leg.... what can I do for it???? she is not in the tie stall barn anymore she back at our place in a very large bedded pack pen by herself, she can not get up on her own, she is getting antibiotics because we believe she has an infection in the leg, we are lifting her up and making her stand for a bit to eat and drink, last night we got her up and I walked her around, she walked around willingly, but does not put much weight on that back leg..... what can I try???? hot packs. ... cold packs.... wrapping??? stronger antibiotic??? just looking for some suggestions.... thanks
Gotcha.Jaymar503":26rmovr9 said:
Stop the antibiotics unless she has a temperature ~ stop guessing. If she won't get up it won't be a hassle. What are you using for antibiotics? I would suggest using DMSO, it is an anti-inflammatory gel and I am thinking you can get it from the vet. I had one horse get kicked by another which caused quite a bit of swelling, and the DMSO helped a lot. I would also recommend banamine for pain and swelling. Its important to get her on her feet without letting her be rowdy, so keeping her penned alone is a good idea. I'm not sure wrapping is a good idea, so much can go wrong. I had a steer cut up his legs pretty bad ~ vet had me spray iodine or microbial on it daily, out of a water bottle so it kind of flushed/cleaned the injury as well. He was given a tetanus shot, but no antibiotics). Watch the temp though ~ no temp, no infection, no antibiotics.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
backhoeboogie":2o11ds15 said:
With that abcess in the hock area sounds like a serious mangement problem.
That cow should have been hauled to a vet or drawn an x on her.
regolith
Well-known member
You're doing the right things. Again, I'll hazard a guess that if you think there's an infection in there you're right.
Five days to a week should see the swelling come down and her walking improve (that's a week after the injury and starting treatment, not from now). I wouldn't do any more at this stage except observe her and have your vet on call if she doesn't improve.
Just covering off the possibilities: swelling due to infection in gash, antibiotics and keeping the wound clean/flushed (if she's in a dirty enviroinment or it's producing pus) should heal it.
Swelling due to traumatic tissue damage: will diminish in time and you probably won't see day to day improvement, it's gradual. That's enough to make her limp, though not for more than a day or so (I've seen heifers with swollen hocks from belting the kick rail in a herringbone shed. They walk out the shed pretty stiff and come in fine next milking).
I saw a cow once with a haematoma swelling on a leg and up her back, which I think was caused by falling and scraping herself on concrete. That didn't go away. Sometimes those sorts of swellings or abscesses (it can be hard to tell which it is) are semi-permanent.
If she can't get up on her own and it's been more than a day I'd be suspicious that it's not any of those things and she's injured. Having said that, my cow that had a deep infection in her leg (I figured out later that she'd calved during a long truck journey), when I first saw her I thought it was broken, but she was able to hobble to the shed for the vet to see her.
If the mastitis was severe it could be making her sick (and lame)... but then she wouldn't walk around when you got her up, she'd just hang her head and play dead again.
Five days to a week should see the swelling come down and her walking improve (that's a week after the injury and starting treatment, not from now). I wouldn't do any more at this stage except observe her and have your vet on call if she doesn't improve.
Just covering off the possibilities: swelling due to infection in gash, antibiotics and keeping the wound clean/flushed (if she's in a dirty enviroinment or it's producing pus) should heal it.
Swelling due to traumatic tissue damage: will diminish in time and you probably won't see day to day improvement, it's gradual. That's enough to make her limp, though not for more than a day or so (I've seen heifers with swollen hocks from belting the kick rail in a herringbone shed. They walk out the shed pretty stiff and come in fine next milking).
I saw a cow once with a haematoma swelling on a leg and up her back, which I think was caused by falling and scraping herself on concrete. That didn't go away. Sometimes those sorts of swellings or abscesses (it can be hard to tell which it is) are semi-permanent.
If she can't get up on her own and it's been more than a day I'd be suspicious that it's not any of those things and she's injured. Having said that, my cow that had a deep infection in her leg (I figured out later that she'd calved during a long truck journey), when I first saw her I thought it was broken, but she was able to hobble to the shed for the vet to see her.
If the mastitis was severe it could be making her sick (and lame)... but then she wouldn't walk around when you got her up, she'd just hang her head and play dead again.
Abcess is different than an "open wound" and needs to be treated differently. So long as there is no infection (check the temp!!), I don't know that it needs a vet call. It's an open wound with swelling involved, she is eating and drinking. My biggest concern is that she is choosing to stay down (that will invite other issues), which is why I suggested banamine.Caustic Burno":2x9hzjqd said:
regolith
Well-known member
Could be either angie, we can't tell if there's an abscess or if the swelling is from other causes over the internet.
banamine is always good for downers, given early before muscle cramping starts to cause issues.
Caustic, with all due respect, some dairy heifers will panic at their first milking regardless of what type of shed or how well they've been raised and handled. Usually the temperament issues are genetic, in my experience. Panicking is what has caused this scenario, not likely to be management at the time or since.
edited for typo. Just noticed your sig angie... did you read all those books? I've been wondering if they're worth finishing, read maybe two of them years ago & my local library has the whole lot.
banamine is always good for downers, given early before muscle cramping starts to cause issues.
Caustic, with all due respect, some dairy heifers will panic at their first milking regardless of what type of shed or how well they've been raised and handled. Usually the temperament issues are genetic, in my experience. Panicking is what has caused this scenario, not likely to be management at the time or since.
edited for typo. Just noticed your sig angie... did you read all those books? I've been wondering if they're worth finishing, read maybe two of them years ago & my local library has the whole lot.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
angie":2ejfkjo9 said:
I think I know what an abcess is.
The young lady stated the bovine in question had an abcess, wasn't standing and had mastitus.
I am just guessing but that cow is pretty FUBAR.
Instead of being on a chat board and throwing syht at the wall hoping for a solution.
She has a mangement problem either get the bovine treated by a competent vet with a treatment plan or shoot it.
:lol2: Sheath your claws CB. I looked before responding and now again, and I do not see that she has an abcess, but I am not so invested that I am going to cross swords. If that cow presented with a temp indicating infection, or a broken leg then I would advise a vet. She is not new to this and is working with an experienced partner.Caustic Burno":3al8diso said:
hillsdown
Well-known member
Just make sure you get that mastitis totally cleared up before drying her off or you will lose those that quarter permanently.
Nuflor is used to treat mastitis ,have you tried that yet in conjunction with a teat infuser med .
For the leg, get her on some anti inflams and the antibiotics you need to have her on for her mastitis will help if there is an infection . As long as you know for sure it is not broken it more than likey will get better given time.
Nuflor is used to treat mastitis ,have you tried that yet in conjunction with a teat infuser med .
For the leg, get her on some anti inflams and the antibiotics you need to have her on for her mastitis will help if there is an infection . As long as you know for sure it is not broken it more than likey will get better given time.
Definitely an infection... there is puss.... she does not have a temp, I have been giving her banamine for the pain, because she is obviously in pain .... we have had to lift her the last couple of times to get her up... the leg is not broken... she walks on it but does not bare all her weight on it... good news is tonight after we lifted her and she stood up I walked her out to the main floor of the barn and she walked around all over, even butted heads with the goat.... going to call the vet tomorrow to see about draining the leg or a stronger antibiotic... ???
hillsdown
Well-known member
Jaymar503":1pef28ai said:
It should drain on it's own ,especially now that she is moving .Stick with meds and anti inflam ;I would switch to a steroidal one for now as they seem to work a little better for really bad swelling like predef or the very least dex.
