Seamen testing a yearling bull

[Amo]

I kept a bull calf of my own. Just using as a clean up. Wanted to get him tested before all the sales were over. Took him up last week. Vet asked his age. I said 10 days either side of a year. Guess there were some droplets on the ends of the tails. I don't have the sheet with me to say what his percentage was.

Always thought Angus matured early? Vet stated usually they come out of this problem, just too young yet. IIRC I think he was 35.8 cm, but could be wrong.

Guess my question is...is this a too young type of problem that he will come out of? Or should I be looking for a replacement? 30 days it the 10 of April, in this country most of the sales are done, and private treaty is pretty well picked through.

Thanks!

 

[branguscowgirl]

Did you test him twice? My vet does an initial test that "cleans out" the old dead floaters. Then a week or so later performs the test again. I have not tested one quite that young. Mine are usually around 18 mos..

 

[Dale L]

It is not uncommon for a bull that young to fail on the first semen pull. Most vets will recommend trying again in a few weeks as brangus stated. When we were bull shopping this winter, one of the guys we visited said he didn't recommend anything under 16 months for breeding. Said it was best to let them mature first. Most of what he sells is coming two year olds.

 

[Amo]

No just once so far. Yes Ive heard of junk up front. Got him in with some bred heifers so he stays in. He has beentrying to mount and extending. Don't stay still so guessing that's about it. Plus he didn't look at the first stuff that came out, but yes I know what your saying.

I know some of the breeders around here sell them unchecked. A lot have run them through too. This vet doesn't check a lot of bulls for breeders. Thus he wasn't very confident sounding in his explanation.

March 23 is birthday. 35.2 cm & 60% morphology. Proximal droplets & distal droplets if I'm reading his writing right. The bull is 110% Angus.

 

[branguscowgirl]

He is probably fine. You can either retest in a week or two, (would not wait much longer or you will have some old ones again) or just wait till he is older. When did you expect to start putting him on cows, and how many? Sometimes it will take the young boys a couple of cycles to get it figured out. ;-) He is still awfully young to expect to much.

 

[Amo]

Ok. Test in 2 weeks sounds better than 30 days. AU clean up on 18 head o heifers. Thinking of au around May 24, so 15 of June. Just don't like picking off the bottom end. Mine mat be bottom end quality, but probably have $1300 in him too.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Your bull is not old enough.

 

[dun]

Your bull is not old enough.

I disagree. We test ours at 11 months, never had a failure to pass yet. With continentals a little older may be better but british breeds should be able to be out settling cows by the time theyre 12 months old.

 

[Nesikep]

Well, the first thing you do is you put the bull on a boat and have him tie knots...but if you're talking about SEMEN testing, that's a whole other thing

Sorry, just couldn't resist the temptation :P

 

[Backbone Ranch]

We put our 14 month old bull in with several cows. He bred them all in the first cycle.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Hey dun I would be willing to bet he tests good at 14 months. You said your bulls and with that I would agree. You know nothing about the breeding of this bull. You don't know how big he is or any thing else about him except he is supposed to angus and a maybe a year old. Dam thing might not weight 500 lb.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Your bull is not old enough.

I disagree. We test ours at 11 months, never had a failure to pass yet. With continentals a little older may be better but british breeds should be able to be out settling cows by the time theyre 12 months old.

Same here Dun. We almost never keep bulls past 12 months. And ALL bulls get a BSE, since all are sold by the time they are 12 months. All have passed thus far, but our scrotum size at that age is usually at least 38CM. I have always been told that a bull needs to be at least 36 to be fertile. Not sure how true that is. Our Feb bull has already bred two cows, and both are at least 45 days past breeding and pregnant. Stocky bought a bull from us, and we tested him in September, he was a November, and he tested highly fertile.
Plasmic drops means the bull prematurely ejaculated. The sperm is not old enough. Maturation of the spermatozoa typically takes 24 hours in a mature bull, and when he ejaculates too soon the droplet is still on there. As the sperm matures and develops in the teste, the droplet moves further down until it is fully mature and the droplet is gone. A spermatozoa with a droplet can not fertilize an egg. Your bull will likely be fertile, just at an older age. Size and feeding program can also help or hinder growth in the bull, and thus maturity.
There is also a direct correlation in bull maturity, testicular size, and age of sexual maturity in his heifers he produces.

 

[Amo]

Thanks for explanation of the droplets. Vet had scale on chute. He weighed 907#s. He probably should be bigger, but I'm not selling him so don't see the need to push the heck out of him. His sire is Sitz dash/Final Answer He is smaller framed bull as is this calfs mother. She has f.d. in her, rest would have to look up.

Ya, I'll test his knowledge of what side is starboard! :lol2:

 

[3waycross]

Your bull is not old enough.

I disagree. We test ours at 11 months, never had a failure to pass yet. With continentals a little older may be better but british breeds should be able to be out settling cows by the time theyre 12 months old.

Same here Dun. We almost never keep bulls past 12 months. And ALL bulls get a BSE, since all are sold by the time they are 12 months. All have passed thus far, but our scrotum size at that age is usually at least 38CM. I have always been told that a bull needs to be at least 36 to be fertile. Not sure how true that is. Our Feb bull has already bred two cows, and both are at least 45 days past breeding and pregnant. Stocky bought a bull from us, and we tested him in September, he was a November, and he tested highly fertile.
Plasmic drops means the bull prematurely ejaculated. The sperm is not old enough. Maturation of the spermatozoa typically takes 24 hours in a mature bull, and when he ejaculates too soon the droplet is still on there. As the sperm matures and develops in the teste, the droplet moves further down until it is fully mature and the droplet is gone. A spermatozoa with a droplet can not fertilize an egg. Your bull will likely be fertile, just at an older age. Size and feeding program can also help or hinder growth in the bull, and thus maturity.
There is also a direct correlation in bull maturity, testicular size, and age of sexual maturity in his heifers he produces.

By whom? Certainly not a Vet and definately not at 1yr. We have had this argument here before. It might vary a bit from state to state but it sure as heck ain't 36cm at 12 months.

 

[3waycross]

Same here Dun. We almost never keep bulls past 12 months. And ALL bulls get a BSE, since all are sold by the time they are 12 months. All have passed thus far, but our scrotum size at that age is usually at least 38CM. I have always been told that a bull needs to be at least 36 to be fertile. Not sure how true that is. Our Feb bull has already bred two cows, and both are at least 45 days past breeding and pregnant. Stocky bought a bull from us, and we tested him in September, he was a November, and he tested highly fertile.
Plasmic drops means the bull prematurely ejaculated. The sperm is not old enough. Maturation of the spermatozoa typically takes 24 hours in a mature bull, and when he ejaculates too soon the droplet is still on there. As the sperm matures and develops in the teste, the droplet moves further down until it is fully mature and the droplet is gone. A spermatozoa with a droplet can not fertilize an egg. Your bull will likely be fertile, just at an older age. Size and feeding program can also help or hinder growth in the bull, and thus maturity.
There is also a direct correlation in bull maturity, testicular size, and age of sexual maturity in his heifers he produces.[/quote]

the following link will tell you the minimum requirements for breeding bulls in your state. It took me 30 seconds to find it instead of quoting the guy at the feed store.
http://www.sdstate.edu/ars/species/beef ... -Guide.pdf

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

By whom? Certainly not a Vet and definately not at 1yr. We have had this argument here before. It might vary a bit from state to state but it sure as heck ain't 36cm at 12 months.

Gee, looking for a fight? :tiphat:
I would not say it varies from state to state, but it DOES vary from breed to breed!
Scrotal circumference is one small portion of the entire picture of a BSE. MANY breeders have repeated the old adage of "size matters" when it comes to just looking at a bull and telling if he has the scrotal size to be fertile yet, but those of us who sell bulls KNOW they must be tested regardless of the size of the testis. However, there is no way I would waste my money doing a BSE on a bull that did not look like he was at least 30 to 36 cm in size (for MY breed). I would just wait for him to grow and develop more (our bulls have been fortunate enough to be that big or bigger by 12 months when we sell them). Of course, my view of the scrotum sac comes strictly from the rear of a Simmental... and maybe they are just "hung" a little bigger :lol:

Great link, by the way. Good read, thank you!

 

[3waycross]

By whom? Certainly not a Vet and definately not at 1yr. We have had this argument here before. It might vary a bit from state to state but it sure as heck ain't 36cm at 12 months.

Gee, looking for a fight? :tiphat:
I would not say it varies from state to state, but it DOES vary from breed to breed!
Scrotal circumference is one small portion of the entire picture of a BSE. MANY breeders have repeated the old adage of "size matters" when it comes to just looking at a bull and telling if he has the scrotal size to be fertile yet, but those of us who sell bulls KNOW they must be tested regardless of the size of the testis. However, there is no way I would waste my money doing a BSE on a bull that did not look like he was at least 30 to 36 cm in size (for MY breed). I would just wait for him to grow and develop more (our bulls have been fortunate enough to be that big or bigger by 12 months when we sell them). Of course, my view of the scrotum sac comes strictly from the rear of a Simmental... and maybe they are just "hung" a little bigger :lol:

Great link, by the way. Good read, thank you!

NO NOT AT ALL. However I actually read the article and could not find the breed distinction anywhere. It is the Missouri BSE regs. That is your state is it not? I could care less about how well your bull is hung. The point was based on statements like yours..36cm...people go outside and cut their bull. They see someone with a lot of posts and think they know more than them and base real world choices on what YOU say so it is incumbent upon you as a purebred breeder to give them accurate information. Hence the link to the MISSOURI BSE regs.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

By whom? Certainly not a Vet and definately not at 1yr. We have had this argument here before. It might vary a bit from state to state but it sure as heck ain't 36cm at 12 months.

Gee, looking for a fight? :tiphat:
I would not say it varies from state to state, but it DOES vary from breed to breed!
Scrotal circumference is one small portion of the entire picture of a BSE. MANY breeders have repeated the old adage of "size matters" when it comes to just looking at a bull and telling if he has the scrotal size to be fertile yet, but those of us who sell bulls KNOW they must be tested regardless of the size of the testis. However, there is no way I would waste my money doing a BSE on a bull that did not look like he was at least 30 to 36 cm in size (for MY breed). I would just wait for him to grow and develop more (our bulls have been fortunate enough to be that big or bigger by 12 months when we sell them). Of course, my view of the scrotum sac comes strictly from the rear of a Simmental... and maybe they are just "hung" a little bigger :lol:

Great link, by the way. Good read, thank you!

NO NOT AT ALL. However I actually read the article and could not find the breed distinction anywhere. It is the Missouri BSE regs. That is your state is it not? I could care less about how well your bull is hung. The point was based on statements like yours..36cm...people go outside and cut their bull. They see someone with a lot of posts and think they know more than them and base real world choices on what YOU say so it is incumbent upon you as a purebred breeder to give them accurate information. Hence the link to the MISSOURI BSE regs.

Gee, if people are going out and cutting their bull based STRICTLY on a scrotal circumference measurement then maybe they should not be raising bulls? Plus, where did I EVER say a bull needed to be cut if it was not 36 cm? You are taking this way out of context. I simply made a statement of what other "old time" breeders around here say about a bull; if he is not 36 cm he will not settle a cow, give him more time to mature, or in my exact words

I have always been told that a bull needs to be at least 36 to be fertile. Not sure how true that is.

(what part of "not sure how true that is" is not understood?) Period (we are strictly talking about young, immature bulls, not older bulls). Regardless of breed. And if you look at the article, it states 30 cm is the minimum, so a 6 cm difference... hmm, visual appraisal can be off by more than that. That is why every bull needs a BSE before being used.
By the way, I read the article too. Did you happen to notice how old the references are that are being used? I wonder of there is anything newer out there?

Have a great day! Geesh!

 

[3waycross]

For the record a 6cm difference is huge and the literature is plenty new enuf to be accurate.

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

I would like to see one of the 12 month old bulls kicked out around here about the 1st of June and see what he looks like at the end of July.