retaining heifers in a small herd

[talltimber]

I'll show my ignorance in this post but it's something I've been thinking about and just don't have the experience to make an intelligent decision. Maybe some of you have been where I am before and can offer some advice and/or cautions.

I have a small herd of black Angus/Angus cross (small percentage cross of Simi mostly I think way back). I am wanting to concentrate on my cows, to get some good mamas that will raise good, wide, stout calves, and black. I have good cows for the most part now. They are turning out just the kind of calves I want to be selling.

I have two bulls. Old bull (around 8 years old) is a CC&7 son, registered, gentle, throws good calves. Young bull is a CC&7 son/commercial cow ( I have his mama) AI calf I bought from Dad when he sold out. I have a couple of his first calves on the ground now, too early to tell if there will be much difference between the bulls yet.

The issue is, I am at about half stock, and some of my cows are at 9 years old now. I would like to be at full stock by about 4 years or so. I don't know what I can do as far as the bull situation goes, in keeping heifers. I would most likely AI the heifers for their first calf, although I'm not sure I would have any trouble using the young bull. My calves are generally small when they are born. What can I do, as far as, "outcrossing?" within the Angus breed to be able to keep my heifers and run the bulls I have? I have been told, maybe incorrectly, that I can breed daughters to fathers, but not keep any of those heifers. If so, that would get me some replacements, from a good maternal line, then AI those until I change bulls?

Anything you could offer in guidance would be appreciated.

 

[tom4018]

For what it is worth we have bred heifers back to their sire, so far no problems. Some call it linebreeding. Never kept their calves though.

 

[WalnutCrest]

One of our nicest females is the result of a father/daughter mating. Nature is full of father/daughter (or son/mother) matings. If you do matings like that, and you end up with problems, it will serve as advance notice of problems that will come later on if you don't make cull decisions today. While costly and inconvenient, it's a good idea to know you have one or two problem cows (or a problem bull) today than to find out in 10 years you have a dozen or more of them.

So, what I'd do ...

* Research to find a bull you like who is proven to produce the cattle you like in the environment in which you're operating. One bulls' offspring might work awesome in Arizona or upstate-New York, but not in Louisiana.
* Use that bull on your heifers; run your smaller bull as clean-up on the heifers for a month, then turn them all in with the cows and the bigger bull.
* You can keep the daughters out of a father/daughter mating if they breed up and give you a healthy calf --- I wouldn't make a cull decision solely on pedigree --- make the decision on performance. If she doesn't grow or she doesn't breed up or she doesn't calve out and raise a good calf, then cull her. If she does, keep her. She may turn out to be one of your better girls.

Good luck to you.

 

[Ebenezer]

Keep a bull calf from this crop and breed them to him as a half sib. Not a problem, he will be a good size and it keeps down hybrid vigor on calf birthweights. Retain any that you like. Too many folks think about line breeding like the monster under the bed. Not a real problem except in our recent age where it has become taboo in order to sell bulls or breeds. Look back at the master breeders of earlier centuries or study the thinkers of today.

 

[fnfarms1]

If you can AI I think its always the best way, you get to breed cows to a bull you can't afford to own. Also you don't have any relation issues for replacements on your current bull. Personally I don't have the time or experience to have much success AI'ing, all my cows are natural cover. Once my herd quality gets to where I'd like and kids are older(more free time), then I may AI.
I'd say your thinking is on track, just takes time. If your replacements happen not to be up to your standards, sell and buy to replace. I made the mistake in starting out of keeping some colored heifers because i'd get docked at sale. Problem is your just continuing the cycle. I'm sure color isn't your issue but telling my experience. Now I keep only my best to make a better animal.
I think your correct also in 'linebreeding' just not to far with it. Personally i'd say 1-2generations max,2 may be pushing it

 

[bigbull338]

i would keep the very best of your heifers.those would be the 1s i would breed.sell the old bull.buy a young bull to run with your heifers.your getting close to culling a bunch of your cows since they are 9yrs old.

 

[Stocker Steve]

Anything you could offer in guidance would be appreciated.

Retaining heifers can be fun, but it is a slow and expensive way to fully stock. If your main goal is to fully stock:

1) Custom grazing is a no cash option
2) Else, purchasing big mature cows is the lowest $/acre approach

 

[WalnutCrest]

Anything you could offer in guidance would be appreciated.

Retaining heifers can be fun, but it is a slow and expensive way to fully stock. If your main goal is to fully stock:

1) Custom grazing is a no cash option
2) Else, purchasing big mature cows is the lowest $/acre approach

+1

 

[talltimber]

I would go with option two if I had the chance. I'd take ten or more good kind of 3-5 yo cows, off the farm, fescue pasture from not very far from here, good mineral/vac program. Can't find them. Yet. I'm paranoid about bringing something in to the ones I have now, won't buy at the sale barn.

Problem HAS been, nobody selling that kind with calves bringing 1500. And I should add, for what I am wiling to pay. I know where cattle are at, basically not for sale, unless...$$

Not interested in option 1, at all. For one reason, I want cow/calf. For another, time can be a factor for me. I don't have time to check cows like I want occasionally, sure don't have time to watch a bunch of calves like I would want to.

 

[JSCATTLE]

I hold 10% of the cow herd in heifers a year ..50 cows = 5 heifers I'm running about half stocking rate too because I refuse to give 3500 for a cow .. When prices get down ill buy cows .. But by keeping 10% it allows me to cull old or poor doing cows every year .. I know everyone says its cheaper to buy them but I can't make my pencil show that .. It cost me price of calf when sold .. Plus 200 dollars to get them to breeding age / weight .. Then they are on grass with the cows ..

 

[Muddy]

I hold 10% of the cow herd in heifers a year ..50 cows = 5 heifers I'm running about half stocking rate too because I refuse to give 3500 for a cow .. When prices get down ill buy cows .. But by keeping 10% it allows me to cull old or poor doing cows every year .. I know everyone says its cheaper to buy them but I can't make my pencil show that .. It cost me price of calf when sold .. Plus 200 dollars to get them to breeding age / weight .. Then they are on grass with the cows ..

That's what we usually do. We rarely buys cows/heifers from outside sources simply because most prices are too high for us while our culls are cheap (sold by their weight).

 

[tom4018]

Right now it seems that prices for bred heifers sure have not came down with the price of feeders. I know you gain time by buying bred but to me it seems to pencil out to retain even more now.

 

[Bigfoot]

I've done father to daughter, more times than I care to share. I haven't, and wouldn't go past that. It'll give you 3, and sometimes 4 calf crops out of the same bull.

 

[fnfarms1]

I hold 10% of the cow herd in heifers a year ..50 cows = 5 heifers I'm running about half stocking rate too because I refuse to give 3500 for a cow .. When prices get down ill buy cows .. But by keeping 10% it allows me to cull old or poor doing cows every year .. I know everyone says its cheaper to buy them but I can't make my pencil show that .. It cost me price of calf when sold .. Plus 200 dollars to get them to breeding age / weight .. Then they are on grass with the cows ..

That's what we usually do. We rarely buys cows/heifers from outside sources simply because most prices are too high for us while our culls are cheap (sold by their weight).

Same here as for retaining. I did bite the bullet and buy 7 bred heifers this year, but I felt I needed to. When I bought my set of cows I had to buy several short n solids to make it work, couldn't get them replaced fast enough retaining my own.
Besides retaining my own I feel I have some background on them, know the bull and cow and their histories. My best cows bred to a good bull should be good quality heifers.

 

[JSCATTLE]

I hold 10% of the cow herd in heifers a year ..50 cows = 5 heifers I'm running about half stocking rate too because I refuse to give 3500 for a cow .. When prices get down ill buy cows .. But by keeping 10% it allows me to cull old or poor doing cows every year .. I know everyone says its cheaper to buy them but I can't make my pencil show that .. It cost me price of calf when sold .. Plus 200 dollars to get them to breeding age / weight .. Then they are on grass with the cows ..

That's what we usually do. We rarely buys cows/heifers from outside sources simply because most prices are too high for us while our culls are cheap (sold by their weight).

Same here as for retaining. I did bite the bullet and buy 7 bred heifers this year, but I felt I needed to. When I bought my set of cows I had to buy several short n solids to make it work, couldn't get them replaced fast enough retaining my own.
Besides retaining my own I feel I have some background on them, know the bull and cow and their histories. My best cows bred to a good bull should be good quality heifers.

I do it for back ground reasons too .. I know it doesn't work for large operations but it does for me .. I like raising my heifers for several reasons .
1,they are calm when I'm done. I can walk up to just about any of my cows and worm or fly spray them I'm the pasture..
2 if they do get out of the fence, I just holler and they come running like a dog ..
I don't have to worry about them getting after me during calving season for the most part.. a few are salty but haven't done more than blow a little snot.
I know what kind of momma they are out of ..and how she raises a calf ..

 

[Muddy]

Best thing is that you'll know what the heifers are bred to. My uncle used to buy bred heifers or bred cows but in few last years he got few surprises from them. Apparently they're bred to something that isn't an Angus, a Charolais or a Hereford bull.