Replacements, buy em or raise em???

[Arkieman]

I retain my own heifers. The way I raise mine will probably raise a few eyebrows as my yearling weights will in most cases sound very uncompetitive, but they are raised on whatever is available to eat in the veld without supplement. Heifers that survive this culling method never disappoints in the ease of keeping and from the first calving onwards will only be culled on their ability to raise a calf and breed back under the same circumstances.

That's the way we raise our heifers also, excpet pasture vs veld. That may be why our retained heifers last longer then purchased because they've been proven in out environment under our (mis)management system

I agree, we're small. Out of the 4 heifers from last years calves, 2 made the winter in very nice shape (hay only). The other 2 didn't and will be gone! I could put a little feed to them and sell them as "replacements", but I know the truth. If I went to someone elses place for replacements, how do I know they aren't making those hard doers look better w/ feed too?? Time will tell if they can raise a calf, but you don't know that about anything you bring in either...

 

[dyates]

Caustic, don't you ever get burned buying those heavies? Somebody already culled them for a reason. I'm not saying I totally disagree with you, each to their own. I just have a hard time with your math in today's market. If I have good heifers that will only bring $450-475 at the salebarn, I can keep two or three of those on the same grass as somebody else's cull that will cost $800 or better. The income is delayed, but I can sell the heifers I don't want after calving and make a little better money than I can by selling them now. If I sell her today, I make 50 bucks tops. If I keep her another 18 months and calve her out, she brings $900-$1000, which, for me, adds up to $75-80 per year vs. $50. I know you will find flaws with my accounting. Each person should do whatever makes them sleep good at night. We can all bend a pencil to prove our own logic to ourselves. Just be sure you aren't kidding yourself.

 

[Angus Cowman]

Caustic, don't you ever get burned buying those heavies? Somebody already culled them for a reason. I'm not saying I totally disagree with you, each to their own. I just have a hard time with your math in today's market. If I have good heifers that will only bring $450-475 at the salebarn, I can keep two or three of those on the same grass as somebody else's cull that will cost $800 or better. The income is delayed, but I can sell the heifers I don't want after calving and make a little better money than I can by selling them now. If I sell her today, I make 50 bucks tops. If I keep her another 18 months and calve her out, she brings $900-$1000, which, for me, adds up to $75-80 per year vs. $50. I know you will find flaws with my accounting. Each person should do whatever makes them sleep good at night. We can all bend a pencil to prove our own logic to ourselves. Just be sure you aren't kidding yourself.

I ain't Caustic but about getting burned buying heavy's or hfr pairs I buy mine from a large scale operation and they stand behind them and I have delt with them for a few yrs also they figure and I beleive their #s that they clear about $100-$200 on a bred hfr well that isn't much and the only way they can do it is scale of economics they sell between 500-1000 hd pr yr
and in all actuality I am probably buying my hfrs back alot of times as they buy all my hfr calves
in my situation I don't have to worry about keeping hfrs seperate, don't have to mess with breeding them so I don't have to AI or keep 2 hfr bulls and I don't have to worry about which ones to keep

so I it cost me $100 more to buy that hfr ready to calve or that already has a calf on the ground that $100 doesn't pay for much labor or anything else when I can run another cow for the time period it would take to get a calf on the ground

 

[Brute 23]

What I like to do if I am going to buy heifers is buy them off some one that I know operates simular. I go to them when they get ready to haul to the auction barn and offer them what ever the auction barn will pay plus have some one come pick them up. You are paying auction barn prices but know what you are gettting. Dump the heifers out on grass, cull what you don't want, keep what you do. On a good year you make money off the culls because they are heavier than when you bought them.

I have seen people do this on a large scale to stock places. Go buy say 350-#600 heifers from all over the place and dump them out. They start cull as they go, sell some to individuals off the top, ect. In the end they have maybe 100 head ready to breed. They can actually make money doing this and end up with some really nice cattle.

 

[Angus Cowman]

What I like to do if I am going to buy heifers is buy them off some one that I know operates simular. I go to them when they get ready to haul to the auction barn and offer them what ever the auction barn will pay plus have some one come pick them up. You are paying auction barn prices but know what you are gettting. Dump the heifers out on grass, cull what you don't want, keep what you do. On a good year you make money off the culls because they are heavier than when you bought them.

I have seen people do this on a large scale to stock places. Go buy say 350-#600 heifers from all over the place and dump them out. They start cull as they go, sell some to individuals off the top, ect. In the end they have maybe 100 head ready to breed. They can actually make money doing this and end up with some really nice cattle.

I have seen people do really well with that
The guys I buy from only buy from guys like me that use their bulls so they kinda know the genetics

 

[VanC]

I find it odd that some people think that a commercial producer wouldn't be as concerned with genetics as the seedstock guys. Shouldn't everyone be striving to improve their herd? Otherwise, what's the point?

What about the guy that sells on the grid? He has to maintain his herd's carcass quality in order to make as much as he can. If he has a reliable source for replacements that he knows will fit into his program, then that's great. If not, he might be better off raising replacements. Otherwise he might end up with something that doesn't grade and yield well, and he ends up losing his rear end.

As has been said already, if you know what you're getting, then fine. But if you buy unknowns, it seems to me you're taking a heckuva chance. How do you know what they were bred to, or how long it took to get them bred? If you buy ten bred heifers and a few months later you have to cull five because they didn't breed back, or they have crappy udders, or they can't maintain their condition, how can that be good?

Anyway, I can see both sides, but I still don't see how anyone can say that one or the other is best in every situation.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Caustic, don't you ever get burned buying those heavies? Somebody already culled them for a reason. I'm not saying I totally disagree with you, each to their own. I just have a hard time with your math in today's market. If I have good heifers that will only bring $450-475 at the salebarn, I can keep two or three of those on the same grass as somebody else's cull that will cost $800 or better. The income is delayed, but I can sell the heifers I don't want after calving and make a little better money than I can by selling them now. If I sell her today, I make 50 bucks tops. If I keep her another 18 months and calve her out, she brings $900-$1000, which, for me, adds up to $75-80 per year vs. $50. I know you will find flaws with my accounting. Each person should do whatever makes them sleep good at night. We can all bend a pencil to prove our own logic to ourselves. Just be sure you aren't kidding yourself.

Very seldom as I have a discerning eye and I buy opportunities. I attend the salebarn often enough to know who is selling and what they have and the reason they are leaving. They are out of hay and need feed money, they have overstocked in good times. I bought an SS four calves ago for 360 dollars she left this year with a weaned calf and brought 380 dollars as a can and cutter. Teeth finally wore out on the old girl. I knew who was selling her and why, he was out of hay and she was an older girl, my kind of cow she had been working for years for him and knew how. She worked four more for me on good grass and hay she was a money maker.

 

[cypressfarms]

Cyrpressfarms My pet peeve is also bad bagged cows. But you mentioned some of those that you bought you will grow out and if "you don't like them" you will sell them as bred heifers. Well it looks to me like you might have some customers right here on this topic. I just don't want to be that person that buys those. But you did what you needed to do to make money.

Let me rephrase please. My pet peave is bad bagged cows. You won't reall know that a cow is bad bagged until they calve. The heifers that I refer to when I say that I may not like them is not so much the bags (because they haven't had a calf yet), but other traits. If a cow does have a calf and the bag is an issue, I'll sell the cow and calf at the stockyard, so that everyone will see why they're being sold. I'm not trying to deceive anoyone, only make my herd better.

By the way just because I don't like them doesn't mean they wont make a good moma. I wont take "wild" heifers that won't come when called, and I dont like big framed cattle. Those might fit it well into anothers operation.

 

[tom4018]

Thanks for all the replies. Wanted to look at this from different views. I am thinking I might keep some and buy some bred to split the difference. Changed bulls and really like the old bull and some of his heifers look nice so I thought about keeping some of his bloodline. Since I hopefully won't be changing bulls for a few years again I might keep a few heifers this year and buy the rest. Both ways seem to be a crap shoot as far as how they turn out long term.

 

[TheLazyM]

Now w/ all thats been said. Do you put the kept back heifers w/ their sire or brother and do you have anthor bull for this setup. Why I ask is cause I have more than enough ground right now than I'm using,"grazon". I can have 2 herds. I have 2 bull calves right now that I can raise to use. I could cross the heifers over the fence. Is this over thinking it?
I really would some more advice on this from bottom line watchers like Caustic Burno.
Like Caustic Burno I also found a value buying out old heavy bred cows. I buy from guys I know. Most sells are because of culling for feed or making room for replacements and cant carry the old girl over.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Now w/ all thats been said. Do you put the kept back heifers w/ their sire or brother and do you have anthor bull for this setup. Why I ask is cause I have more than enough ground right now than I'm using,"grazon". I can have 2 herds. I have 2 bull calves right now that I can raise to use. I could cross the heifers over the fence. Is this over thinking it?
I really would some more advice on this from bottom line watchers like Caustic Burno.
Like Caustic Burno I also found a value buying out old heavy bred cows. I buy from guys I know. Most sells are because of culling for feed or making room for replacements and cant carry the old girl over.

If you are using Grazon for weed control this is absolutely the worst method IMO as grazon kills grass seed as well, reducing your stand over the years increasing breeding areas for grasshoppers which consume hugh volumes of cow feed. IMO 2-4-D is a much better product for broadleaf control. Fertilize your pasture this is the cheapest feed you can put in a cow, you can't just take and take and expect to maintain high carrying capicity.
Learn to be the best grass farmer in your region on your grass. If a cow can't maintain BCS and raise the calf on my grass and hay I am changing the cow not the grass or hay.
Are you raising crossbred bulls to put or your cows this is also a big mistake as your ending up with a genetic woodpile that looks like a box of crayons.
Sell three good calves and buy the best terminal sire you can if you want two sell six. Good rule of thumb is three calves to buy replacement bulls. A bad cow hurts the bottom line a bad bull is a diaster.
Also when buying replacements heifers or heavies in a commercial operation buy red cows they are cheaper and you have options to follow market trends as they will change as they always have.
Run a homo black bull bingo black calf's Red Bull red calfs a Char yellow calfs all by just changing the bull.
Run F-1 crossbred Momma's with the best straight breed terminal sire to maximize hybred vigor for the most pounds across the scale.

 

[TheLazyM]

Sorry Caustic Burno, I was'nt asking about using grazon weed control I typo'd. I was saying I have more than 1 pasture and I grow more grass than what is beening grazed.
What I want to know is if running 2 bulls crossing bull a w/ bull b's daughters would hurt the bottom line. I did see where you aswered the question for me. I like looking into the "crayon box". It hurts my head looking at a bunch of the same color cattle. But the bottom line is the bottom line. I can live with the lost cause of the color. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Sorry Caustic Burno, I was'nt asking about using grazon weed control I typo'd. I was saying I have more than 1 pasture and I grow more grass than what is beening grazed.
What I want to know is if running 2 bulls crossing bull a w/ bull b's daughters would hurt the bottom line. I did see where you aswered the question for me. I like looking into the "crayon box". It hurts my head looking at a bunch of the same color cattle. But the bottom line is the bottom line. I can live with the lost cause of the color. Thanks for the insight.

Just know that loss can be quite a bit a order buyers like consistent lots when they buy 10 to 15 cents a pound can be the difference in profit or welfare cattle.
Crossbred bulls have oh crap written all over them when it comes to calving problems and growth especially on genetically close cattle. You are not line breeding here you are breeding to make your billfold a lot thiner.

 

[cypressfarms]

You are not line breeding here you are breeding to make your billfold a lot thiner.

Very good point indeed. If you are a cow/calfer your main goal is to get a group of uniform calves to weaning weight in the shortest time possible, while not draining the cows so much that they cannot rebreed. You may like red baldies, I do to, but they just don't being as much at the sale as black baldies - be it steers or heifers. This past year I experimented with a hereford bull and some of my commercial brangus'. I found that some of those brangus cows had the red recesive gene, and will not breed those to a hereford again. Doesn't mean that the cows that had black baldies don't have the red recessive, just means that they didn't pass it on to that particular calf. The goal was to produce around 10 black baldies to sell as steers, or even keep the heifers.

All in all, Caustic is right - you have to tight with the wallet and squeeze everything you can out of every dollar.

 

[Brute 23]

Both of Caustic's last two posts are pretty much right on. I would write that stuff down some where. ;-)

Crossbred bulls have always been a no-no for me. I am looking at some 1/4 Brahma 3/4 Herf bulls that look just like herf but with short hair. Even with them, you need to have some pretty uniform mommas.

 

[dun]

Both of Caustic's last two posts are pretty much right on. I would write that stuff down some where. ;-)

Crossbred bulls have always been a no-no for me. I am looking at some 1/4 Brahma 3/4 Herf bulls that look just like herf but with short hair. Even with them, you need to have some pretty uniform mommas.

That's the whole key to using a crossbred bull, uniform cow herd. That's the reason for using a pure bred bull on most cow herds because they are usually generously genetically diverse. If you have a cow herd of pure anybreed, a cross bred bull might/should work ok.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Both of Caustic's last two posts are pretty much right on. I would write that stuff down some where. ;-)

Crossbred bulls have always been a no-no for me. I am looking at some 1/4 Brahma 3/4 Herf bulls that look just like herf but with short hair. Even with them, you need to have some pretty uniform mommas.

That's the whole key to using a crossbred bull, uniform cow herd. That's the reason for using a pure bred bull on most cow herds because they are usually generously genetically diverse. If you have a cow herd of pure anybreed, a cross bred bull might/should work ok.

Dun in theory you are dead on the problem with crossbred bulls is you have no idea what birth weights will be or if he will be a calving ease bull.
I can't sell dead calfs and crippled cows don't bring much at he salebarn.
The breed associations have made huge strides in the last 40 years with EPD's not saying there still isn't an anomoly once in a while or dishonest reporting once in a while. A good seedstock producer with a repitation is a good commodity for the commercial Cattleman. There are some corners you can't cut IMO the bull, mineral and medical programs.
A composite breed is a different story SimAngus/Brangus/Braford I agree a 100%



I never did like shooting dice as there is no skill to the game and craps ain't good.
I will stick to poker you still have the option to hold or fold.

 

[alacattleman]

Both of Caustic's last two posts are pretty much right on. I would write that stuff down some where. ;-)

Crossbred bulls have always been a no-no for me. I am looking at some 1/4 Brahma 3/4 Herf bulls that look just like herf but with short hair. Even with them, you need to have some pretty uniform mommas.

That's the whole key to using a crossbred bull, uniform cow herd. That's the reason for using a pure bred bull on most cow herds because they are usually generously genetically diverse. If you have a cow herd of pure anybreed, a cross bred bull might/should work ok.

yep to keep a handle on the direction your going, theres got to be some genetic stability on one side. or each calf will be like opening a cracker jack box

 

[Cowdirt]

You have to take you total cost, add in what ever you get from the 2 at the auction , and divide that by the remaining keepers

Ex: At first you divided the total, $13,500, between 10 head. If only 8 pan out, you have to take $13,500, add in what ever two heifer bring at the ring (#800x.7)x2=$1120, and divide that between the remaining 8 heifers.

13,500 + $1120 = $14,620 / 8 = $1,827.5

Brute, I can't figure out why you'd add the $1120 from the sale of the two heifers you sold to the $13,500. Seems to me that money (minus their upkeep at this point not already factored in) would come off the $13,500; then divide by 8 to get the cost of your keepers.

 

[Brute 23]

You could do it that away. Take out what you got for the two heifers and take out their cost from the whole calculation. That sepereates them from the "replacement heifer cost" but then you have to put them back into your regular "calf crop spread sheet". It would make your "replacement heifer cost" look better, but where ever you put them it may bring that down if you didn't get a good return.

I prefer to do it the way I calculated because realistically, when you keep replacements not all of them will turn out (Dun prob. has a statistic on that ). So when I keep say 10 heifers, they become their own "business"; their own spread sheet. The cost of being in the replacement heifer business is you will lose some. Its like feed lots, if 3 calves out of 100 die, the lost money on those three has to get divided among the other 97 before you can see if you make a profit.

Another reason for doing it that away is when you do the deal where you say have 100 heifers, sell 50 and keep 50. When you take the profit off the 50 you sold and divide that back between the 50 you kept, it makes the cost of the 50 you kept lower.

I believe in breaking a cattle operation down into smaller small portions. Easier to see what is what.