Registered Cattle Wish

[HOSS]

Just a quick question for everyone to play with. If money was not an option and you could buy whatever cattle you wanted to start a registered herd what would you buy? Pick a breed, tell me what sires and dams you would use to get the best imaginable quality for your area, weather, grazing etc.. Tell me which bloodlines you would start with and why. Also elaborate on your marketing game plan to get your bulls and replacement heifers out to the masses. This should be interesting to think (dream) about.

 

[Badlands]

Doesn't matter!

Name one seedstock supplier that was able to buy into a proven family and make it go as successfully as the folks that first raised them over the longer term?

Sure, some folks have made a killing on buying a few cows from other people and being able to market them, we can see that.

But, none of the folks that did this are long term people.

Name one long term seedstock producer (20 years) that bought in and made a go by selling what someone else had first found. Lot's of them make a go in the short term, but it really isn't a "go" if it is short term is it? If it was a "go" they would still be "going" rather than "gone".

I can think of one, maybe two players that did what you are asking. Maybe a few more, but by then, they were banking more on their own reputation and what they had created than what they had purchased.


So, to answer your question. I would pick a few solid cow lines, I'd keep my mouth shut about how great they were, at least until they REALLY proved it at my place, and by then I would be in business for 20 years, or not, thus not needing this sort of start that you ask about.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, it just strikes me in a little different way that the way you wrote it, HOSS.

Badlands

 

[HOSS]

Doesn't matter!

Name one seedstock supplier that was able to buy into a proven family and make it go as successfully as the folks that first raised them over the longer term?

Sure, some folks have made a killing on buying a few cows from other people and being able to market them, we can see that.

But, none of the folks that did this are long term people.

Name one long term seedstock producer (20 years) that bought in and made a go by selling what someone else had first found. Lot's of them make a go in the short term, but it really isn't a "go" if it is short term is it? If it was a "go" they would still be "going" rather than "gone".

I can think of one, maybe two players that did what you are asking. Maybe a few more, but by then, they were banking more on their own reputation and what they had created than what they had purchased.


So, to answer your question. I would pick a few solid cow lines, I'd keep my mouth shut about how great they were, at least until they REALLY proved it at my place, and by then I would be in business for 20 years, or not, thus not needing this sort of start that you ask about.

I don't mean to hijack your thread, it just strikes me in a little different way that the way you wrote it, HOSS.

Badlands

Badlands, I was really only trying to play in the hypothetical realm. Really what I am asking is only a pipe dream for 99% of cattleman. Theory would be that cattleman Bob takes a bull with bloodline X and finds a great female match with bloodline y and then looks for any defecient traits and crosses that mating with bloodline z as a balance and etc.. etc..

What I wanted to explore was the hypothetical situation that a person could start from scratch with plenty funds. I was looking for interesting bloodline combinations and how each person would strategize the marketing of those "super cattle".

I hope that clears up the intent of my original post.

 

[tlmcr]

Hoss:

I am in a better mood than Badlands so I will play. I am a Hereford breeder and that is what I would continue to do as follows:

I would go out to the Cooper and Holden sales in Montana in February and buy every heifer they have for sale (total of 28)
I would do this because their cattle are very easy to look at, extermely consistant, very productive and functional and have extreme longevity.

I would breed all the heifers to Wrangler 19D, low birth weight and both sons and daughters are well accepted.

The next year I would breed them to proven bulls that are known for both excellent sons and daughters such as Govenor 236G, SHF Interstate, P606 and KCF Bennett M326

Over time I would build my own cow families from the top 4 or 5 original heifers and continue to breed AI to top multitrait sires.

As for marketing I would advertise in various publications, take cattle to shows and displays such as Denver and Louisville and sell cattle through my state association sales. I would also sell commercial type bulls at a local auction in my area. Doing this would connect me with other seedstock producers and commercial breeders alike.

There is still time to start this program this year, just send the money my way and I get going.

Tom

 

[Julian]

Name one long term seedstock producer (20 years) that bought in and made a go by selling what someone else had first found. Lot's of them make a go in the short term, but it really isn't a "go" if it is short term is it? If it was a "go" they would still be "going" rather than "gone".

Here are three that did it:
The Mousel Bros. of Cambridge, Nebraska
Joe Lents of Indiahoma, Oklahoma
Jim Lents of Indiahoma, Oklahoma

The Mousel Bros. did it with Anxiety 4th Herefords from Gudgell & Simpson, the founders of the Linebred Anxiety 4th Herefords. Joe Lents did it with Anxiety 4th Herefords from Mousel Bros. Jim Lents did it, and is still doing it, from Anxiety 4th Herefords from Joe Lents.

I believe the key is that this was done by the continuance of a linebreeding program. Each owner further refined and purified what the previous did. Without a linebreeding program there is no way to hold onto all the good that was done in the past. I don't see this working with outcrossing. I believe it will only work with linebreeding. Otherwise a persons lifework in genetics is lost.
--Julian

 

[Badlands]

Right, Julian.

I had these in mind and lumped them into one.

I agree with your assertion.

Badlands

 

[Badlands]

Well, it's a case of "if I told you, I'd have to kill you", Hoss.

I am in the process of aquiring some embryos, so I will get back to you by next Fall!

Some for ready promotion now, but I will work with them in a certain way that they have not been worked with before by other breeders hopefully adding value to them for myself, and others selected for the maternal values and longevity they provided, but rolled from Black Angus into Red Angus in a linebreeding program.


Badlands

 

[Julian]

Well, it's a case of "if I told you, I'd have to kill you", Hoss.

I am in the process of aquiring some embryos, so I will get back to you by next Fall!

Some for ready promotion now, but I will work with them in a certain way that they have not been worked with before by other breeders hopefully adding value to them for myself, and others selected for the maternal values and longevity they provided, but rolled from Black Angus into Red Angus in a linebreeding program.


Badlands

I wish you the best in your program. It will be exciting to hear how it evolves for you. We have started a linebreeding program centered around the Red Angus bull Beckton Julian GG B571. Our first calf is due in March. If you have any black that you are using on some Julian-influenced females keep me informed. We always like tracking the Julian females.

I suppose you have been able to figure out how I came up with my member name by now.
--Julian

 

[Brandonm2]

I am kind of with Badlands on this. "IF money is NO OBJECT", that means I am retiring into the life of the "landed gentry" (rather than us regular working stiffs) and Juan and Pedro are actually going to do all the work for me while I ride around on a golf cart giving orders (I would probably weigh 540 lbs after two years of that). Since I am loaded I don't need to succeed in the cow biz, my goal is really just to entertain myself.....then why would I even CARE what bloodlines I am buying??? In that EXTREME scenario all I would be buying would be about 200 registered heifers that I like off somebodys with a solid grass program and I would take my time about it, AI them to mostly Feltons bred bulls and then after that initial start I would breed towards "ideal" (as defined by me, with input from the cattlemen I respect, the customers I collect over the years, the feedlots, and the packers). I am not really motivated to win ribbons in Denver, (if I am already rich) selling $100,000 donors MIGHT not be such a thrill. Pleasing myself and MAYBE trying to develop a real lasting reputation as a breeder(not just another rich guy who buys and sells expensive cows) would be the only goals longterm.

 

[HOSS]

Well, it's a case of "if I told you, I'd have to kill you", Hoss.

I am in the process of aquiring some embryos, so I will get back to you by next Fall!

Some for ready promotion now, but I will work with them in a certain way that they have not been worked with before by other breeders hopefully adding value to them for myself, and others selected for the maternal values and longevity they provided, but rolled from Black Angus into Red Angus in a linebreeding program.


Badlands

Fair enough Badlands. I hope you are successful in your endeavor.

 

[HOSS]

I am kind of with Badlands on this. "IF money is NO OBJECT", that means I am retiring into the life of the "landed gentry" (rather than us regular working stiffs) and Juan and Pedro are actually going to do all the work for me while I ride around on a golf cart giving orders (I would probably weigh 540 lbs after two years of that). Since I am loaded I don't need to succeed in the cow biz, my goal is really just to entertain myself.....then why would I even CARE what bloodlines I am buying??? In that EXTREME scenario all I would be buying would be about 200 registered heifers that I like off somebodys with a solid grass program and I would take my time about it, AI them to mostly Feltons bred bulls and then after that initial start I would breed towards "ideal" (as defined by me, with input from the cattlemen I respect, the customers I collect over the years, the feedlots, and the packers). I am not really motivated to win ribbons in Denver, (if I am already rich) selling $100,000 donors MIGHT not be such a thrill. Pleasing myself and MAYBE trying to develop a real lasting reputation as a breeder(not just another rich guy who buys and sells expensive cows) would be the only goals longterm.

Come on Brandon you are taking the fun out of it :lol:
Just the thought of being the best should be the ultimate motivation ;-)

 

[Badlands]

Opposite, Julian.

Mostly Julian influence over some 707, Emulous, and Shoshone type Angus bloodlines.

Of course, since I already have the Julian daughter side started, I will keep going with that, too.

Don't worry, I'm watching how your program proceeds, too. ;-)

Badlands

 

[Tom Underwood]

I am kind of with Badlands on this. "IF money is NO OBJECT", that means I am retiring into the life of the "landed gentry" (rather than us regular working stiffs) and Juan and Pedro are actually going to do all the work for me while I ride around on a golf cart giving orders (I would probably weigh 540 lbs after two years of that). Since I am loaded I don't need to succeed in the cow biz, my goal is really just to entertain myself.....then why would I even CARE what bloodlines I am buying??? In that EXTREME scenario all I would be buying would be about 200 registered heifers that I like off somebodys with a solid grass program and I would take my time about it, AI them to mostly Feltons bred bulls and then after that initial start I would breed towards "ideal" (as defined by me, with input from the cattlemen I respect, the customers I collect over the years, the feedlots, and the packers). I am not really motivated to win ribbons in Denver, (if I am already rich) selling $100,000 donors MIGHT not be such a thrill. Pleasing myself and MAYBE trying to develop a real lasting reputation as a breeder(not just another rich guy who buys and sells expensive cows) would be the only goals longterm.

I'm not filthy rich, but I have 1000+ Virginia acres and I am not constrained by near term profits or capital to purchase seed stock. If I could think of a good reason to spend $100k+ on an animal, I would. I have spent more than $200k in aggregate on registered cattle purchases in the last five years.

That said, I've been breeding Herefords for 7 years, and I still have no hired hands, pull the calves, collect the data, make the hay, put out the hay, and I'm in better shape now than I was when I began other than some of the nagging injuries I've received along the way.

It's took me 6+ years to get a plan, and the plan doesn't involve showing in Denver, chasing performance, or continuing a line (although I may incidentally continue some lines). There will be financial pain since I am now evolving from high EPD cattle to cattle with scattered EPD's.

I breed based solely upon beef quality, hardiness (including conformation) and the ability to pass on beef quality (prepotency). Without financial constraint and without peer pressure, I am able to ignore packers, feeders, and peer pressure from current breed practices if I wish to.

I am able to study the writing of the associations, the university and government scientists, the Genestar papers, Jim Lents, Kit Pharo, Hazelton, Lush and many others. Fortunately, with a few years of having done the cattle work myself and with graduate degrees from universities, I am able to comprehend some of the knowledge available to cattle breeders in books. I augment the knowledge I acquire with the experience I gain.

Without near term money being the object, I can look at the cattle. I can notice their slight faults and cull directly to the stockyard without a care. I can learn more, change a direction, and cull aggressively. I can attempt to build lines through heavy inbreeding, and I can buy others' lines that I think may help. I can question any deeply held premise in cattle breeding. I can afford to wonder about correlations and causations between beef quality, beef management, performance and efficiency and experiment with my theories. Then, I can taste my progress or lack of progress every so often and think some more. Finally, in the back of my mind, I am driven by the goal that I can probably make even more money if I find the formula for cattle that produces great tasting, consistent, healthy beef in a cost effective fashion.

 

[Brandonm2]

I am kind of with Badlands on this. "IF money is NO OBJECT", that means I am retiring into the life of the "landed gentry" (rather than us regular working stiffs) and Juan and Pedro are actually going to do all the work for me while I ride around on a golf cart giving orders (I would probably weigh 540 lbs after two years of that). Since I am loaded I don't need to succeed in the cow biz, my goal is really just to entertain myself.....then why would I even CARE what bloodlines I am buying??? In that EXTREME scenario all I would be buying would be about 200 registered heifers that I like off somebodys with a solid grass program and I would take my time about it, AI them to mostly Feltons bred bulls and then after that initial start I would breed towards "ideal" (as defined by me, with input from the cattlemen I respect, the customers I collect over the years, the feedlots, and the packers). I am not really motivated to win ribbons in Denver, (if I am already rich) selling $100,000 donors MIGHT not be such a thrill. Pleasing myself and MAYBE trying to develop a real lasting reputation as a breeder(not just another rich guy who buys and sells expensive cows) would be the only goals longterm.

Come on Brandon you are taking the fun out of it :lol:
Just the thought of being the best should be the ultimate motivation ;-)

Exactly, if the kids' education (and I don't have kids), house, land, trucks, hobbies, gadgets, retirement, funeral, etc are all already paid for (and then some), being the best (at whatever it is that you want to do) IS the only motivation left.

 

[VanC]

Finally, in the back of my mind, I am driven by the goal that I can probably make even more money if I find the formula for cattle that produces great tasting, consistent, healthy beef in a cost effective fashion.

That, my friend, should be the ultimate goal of evey producer. Otherwise, what's the point? Enjoyed your entire post. Keep it up.

 

[Badlands]

I'd buy this cow:

http://old.redangus.org/cgi-bin/extped.4ge?621823

Oh, wait!

I already did!

;-)


Badlands

 

[Julian]

I'd buy this cow:

http://old.redangus.org/cgi-bin/extped.4ge?621823

Oh, wait!

I already did!

;-)


Badlands

If you bred her back to a B571 son you can keep me updated on the resulting calf.
--Julian

 

[iowahawkeyes]

Just a quick question for everyone to play with. If money was not an option and you could buy whatever cattle you wanted to start a registered herd what would you buy? Pick a breed, tell me what sires and dams you would use to get the best imaginable quality for your area, weather, grazing etc.. Tell me which bloodlines you would start with and why. Also elaborate on your marketing game plan to get your bulls and replacement heifers out to the masses. This should be interesting to think (dream) about.

We have had, over the years, Angus, Salers, Simm, Chi, Shorthorn, Maine, and Herefords. We always said if we would win the lottery (we don't play) that we would buy a section (all our ground around here is in square miles) and plant it to grass. The county I live in is almost all farmable ground, no pastures except in creek bottoms. Make some nice paddocks and rotational graze it. We did build a show barn a couple years ago and we love it, makes life much easier in the winter. I would stick with the cattle that we have been accumulating over the last couple years, which are Herfs. We love our Kilo and Reload cattle. We are geared towards the show cattle lines. We already have a sale every year so maybe we could step it up a notch. We like to show and would probably hit all the big ones. I'd stick with the Herfs b/c, for the most part, break easily and have character, they all look a little different, not just plain old black.

 

[Badlands]

Absolutely will, Julian.

We are rolling her over to Spring, at least until we find out where we will be this Summer.

If we end up nearer to home, I'll probably flush her.


Badlands

 

[Dusty]

Hoss I like the idea,

Here is what my dream was, I didn't think i could buy a cow family or profit long term by buying sale topping cattle, I did look for a type of cattle out of a set of bulls and pedigrees that result in good cattle.

My dream was both in Chaorlais and Angus, on the Charolais side I wanted to get those soggy, deep ribbed females backed by D040, Cigar, and the 761 bull & sons, Lucky for me the Cigar x 761 is one of the better matings anyone has found.. I am going to use the ever popular Wyoming Wind sons back on them.. No guess work to the calves, they will work in every condition, every enviroment, and produce a "base" of cattle that will help anyone make money....

I didn't have the deep pockets to get the 2409 genetics or 57D daughters I would love... So I sought out a proven producer and then purchased the top end of his open heifer crop and started introducing AI sires for flushing... Results, I sold 23 angus bulls in 2 weeks this spring.. My first year with Angus Bulls for sale, neighbors love the fact that they can get 1-5 full brothers and come back in 3 years and get bulls out of the same cow by another sire and create a easy linebreeding program to bring out productive traits...

My dream is that it will pay off in the next 3-5 years!!! I think everyone knows where I cam coming from there!!