read in sale catalog

[herfdog]

"Because of data collected on animals in a pedigree, EPDs & $ Indexes are superior to
An animal’s actual measurements in predicting an animal’s genetic ability."

I read this statement in a large breeders sale catalog was wondering what eveyone thought of it.
To me this is saying not to look at what an animal scan data is but look at the EPDs.

 

[Herefords.US]

You can't trust everything you read in sale catalogs or you hear come out of an auctioneer's mouth.

George

 

[novaman]

Yeah and that's how it should be but most are too hard-headed to realize that phenotype and genotype don't go hand in hand. EPD's take the environment out of the equation. I can make a genetically poor animal look good or vice versa by the environment I place that animal in.

 

[alexfarms]

The individual having the sale wants you to pay close attention to the epds on his sale cattle. Most likely he has geared his program toward the construction of superior epds. That is a good thing in alot of ways. You might also want to watch the cattle for things that epds won't necessarily catch....soundnesses, fertility, temperament, function.

 

[dun]

The individual having the sale wants you to pay close attention to the epds on his sale cattle. Most likely he has geared his program toward the construction of superior epds. That is a good thing in alot of ways. You might also want to watch the cattle for things that epds won't necessarily catch....soundnesses, fertility, temperament, function.

They're all part and parcel of the the buying decision. EPDs don;t mean squat if the animal isn;t breeding quality and all the rest don;t mean squat if the EPDs are so far out of wack that it shouldn;t be used for breeding.

 

[redcowsrule33]

Most likely he has geared his program toward the construction of superior epds.

EPD's can be deceiving in a yearling bull, for the most part they are the average of his parents. Sometimes he will turn out to be the average of the parents, but in all liklihood he will be a blend, not an average. If you like the numbers on a particular bull you need to research how consistent those EPDs are in his pedigree; look at both sides at least 3 generations back. I can "construct" great EPDs but how reliable are they? Also keep in mind: how many of us look exactly like our siblings? We have many things in common but there are just as many that we don't. That's where the phenotype comes in. There are genetic outliers in every group. There is a bull in AI right now (RA) that went from a CED of 10 to 0 in one cycle. Previous to that drop I could never believe that a bull built like him and throwing the calves he does that he could have that strong a CED #. Turned out he can't.

The art and crap shoot of cattle breeding is balancing EPDs, phenotype, and bloodline. Take out one leg of that stool and it tips over.

 

[Jovid]

I would prefer the scan data over EPDs any day..

It appears the animals didn't scan well....

 

[herfdog]

I would prefer the scan data over EPDs any day..

thats what I was thinking

 

[Hereford76]

I would prefer the scan data over EPDs any day..

It appears the animals didn't scan well....

If you ask for the actual data and they have some excuse not to give it - walk away.

 

[giftedcowboy]

I won't buy a bull unless I can see his actual data. EPD's don't always translate into pounds of cattle on the scales. I think if you only breed by EPD numbers you will be very disappointed.

 

[Hereford76]

I won't buy a bull unless I can see his actual data. EPD's don't always translate into pounds of cattle on the scales. I think if you only breed by EPD numbers you will be very disappointed.

i won't either - i would love to share a few stories on the topic...

 

[WichitaLineMan]

>>i would love to share a few stories on the topic...<<

Oh, do tell.

 

[Hereford76]

i would never tell most of those stories out loud and especially on here. little gems i like to keep in my own pocket.

I can share one story.

on second thought - i better not.

 

[SRBeef]

On the other hand, the unproven, 2007 yearling bull I bought mostly on trust from Jerry Huth is turning out to be EXACTLY as the EPD's predict. In this case, predictive EPD's were very close. Jerry does also provide a lot of scan and other data with his bulls.

I agree with the statement above about asking for data before making a bull purchase. If actual data can't be provided it would make me question the breeding program. The breeder should need the data for his own development program. jmho.

Someone told me the main thing to keep in mind when buying cattle is that a mistake purchasing a heifer or cow affects one calf. A mistake purchasing a bull affects 30 or more calves - and possibly your herd for generations. It's worth looking at data.

Jim

 

[Doug Thorson]

I buy and market bulls on phenotype, function and actual data and use EPD's just to make sure there isn't something I can't live with which is usually milk or birth. I don't even look at the $ indexes and they aren't in my catalog.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

SRbeef - cattlemen with sound, structured breeding PROGRAMS (not propagators), KNOW their cattle & know what to expect from them. Not saying there couldn't be an outlyer, but generally speaking, someone that has a "program" and has been doing it for a long time, can tell you if the EPD's are acurate for a young prospective calf.
And, I sure like the 3-legged stool theory. EPD's are a TOOL.