Pulling Opinion

[Tiger]

When does everyone start assisting a cow. Personally I like to start quick. If I ever see a calf going back in that is usually a key to action, especially if you see a nose and then none.

 

[Beefy]

with me it depends on how the cow is progressing. especially if i disturb her. in and outs not really a concern of mine, necessarily. the last few pulls ive had have either been malpresentations or I have had a little trouble with shoulders from one particular bull.

 

[Bez>]

When does everyone start assisting a cow. Personally I like to start quick. If I ever see a calf going back in that is usually a key to action, especially if you see a nose and then none.

Far too early in my mind - cows have been doing this for many years longer than you and I have been in existence.
We are pretty much 100% unassisted here with calves that are in the 80 - 100 pound range and the odd one going a bit more.

Bez>

 

[randiliana]

When does everyone start assisting a cow. Personally I like to start quick. If I ever see a calf going back in that is usually a key to action, especially if you see a nose and then none.

That is too early IMO also. Usually if she is far enough along that the nose is showing she can handle the calf. BUT, use the 1/2 hour(a little longer with a heifer) rule. If she has made no progress within 1/2 hour of the water bag, then it is time to at least check her out and usually pull. The nose will go back in quite often. She will push it out a bit, then when she rests it will slip back in. That helps her stretch enough to have the calf without tearing badly. If you pull too early, you can cause some pretty serious problems. On the other hand, I would rather assist a little early and get a live calf than to wait a little too long and end up with a weak or dead calf.

 

[Bez>]

That helps her stretch enough to have the calf without tearing badly. If you pull too early, you can cause some pretty serious problems.

The most important part of your entire writing and the part many forget at times to factor in to the equation.

Bez>

 

[Tiger]

...

 

[Northern Rancher]

If you knew the answer you wanted to hear why'd you ask the question. You can kill just as many calves bailing into soon as you can by giving the cow a bit of time.

 

[msscamp]

I am talking about a small herd of around 50 cows and we cant afford to lose any.

You can actually cause more problems by assisting too soon, as opposed to waiting until assistance is actually needed. Regardless of what you do, you WILL lose calves - you can count on it!

 

[Limomike]

yep.. msscamp is correct. I hardly intefere with my herd, even the young first year calvers.. I just watch them carefully, and ONLY assist when I see its being a huge struggle for the momma.

 

[Bez>]

When does everyone start assisting a cow. Personally I like to start quick. If I ever see a calf going back in that is usually a key to action, especially if you see a nose and then none.

Far too early in my mind - cows have been doing this for many years longer than you and I have been in existence.
We are pretty much 100% unassisted here with calves that are in the 80 - 100 pound range and the odd one going a bit more.

Bez>

True and they have been dying in labor and having dead ones for even longer. I am talking about a small herd of around 50 cows and we cant afford to lose any.

OK - it is your herd - sorry to have wasted your time.

Have a great day,

Bez>

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Excusing the calving ease of Longhorns and Longhorn Crosses...

IMO if one has to pull calves more often than a RARE problem, one needs to re-evaluate their breeding program, mating strategies. Select bulls with LOW birthweight calves, especially on first calf heifers. Otherwise, if a 2nd calf cow's calf has to be pulled, again, something is mis-matched with a breeding program, regardless of the breed.

A producer does NOT have to have 85 to 110# calves...they will catch up with proper nutrition.

I'll take a lighter calf anyday with NO calving problems and make sure the calf and mama have proper nutrition until weaning at ~205 days and both are alive and well, and no post-calving problems.

JMO... ;-)

 

[AngusLimoX]

When does everyone start assisting a cow. Personally I like to start quick. If I ever see a calf going back in that is usually a key to action, especially if you see a nose and then none.

Far too early in my mind - cows have been doing this for many years longer than you and I have been in existence.
We are pretty much 100% unassisted here with calves that are in the 80 - 100 pound range and the odd one going a bit more.

Bez>

True and they have been dying in labor and having dead ones for even longer. I am talking about a small herd of around 50 cows and we cant afford to lose any.

Tiger, I believe Bez , before your smart axxed reply, was trying to relay more of an attitude rather than a minutes and seconds response to YOUR QUESTION.

Now if you are running 50 cows, and still haven't figured out when or if to pull,unless the cows were just recently given to you, then I suspect you are playing games with us.

I have seen hooves for as much as 4 hours and delivered live calves, and I have moved in in as little as 20 mins. And I am a tiny 30 head operation compared to your 50.

Maybe you should give us an education?

Can't afford to lose any? Get out of cattle.

ALX

 

[Bez>]

OK - I will try one more time.

Many possibilities, but here are a few - I will stay with normal presentations for this exercise:

Scenario one - two feet - the correct feet show - just the tips - about 90 minutes after water breaks. She is laying down but still restless and not truly determined to have that calf.

She gets up - and of course the feet disappear.

Do you pull?

Hope not - she is not ready - even if she stands hunched over - not in trouble yet. She might stay like this for an hour before she starts again - no push and no worry. It looks worse than it is.

Scenario two - She is on her side and still has her head up and is pushing - lots of effort and two feet and a nose show up. I like this one because I now know the head is in "the channel" and not turned back. Suddenly she stops pushing.

She has been at it for 45 minutes - intermittent and irregular pushing - some hard and some not so hard.

She is tired, but she is not worn out and has some effort left in her yet. She may not be opened up enough.

In fact she may even get up and walk around for a bit - a bit of a stretch and a bit of a break from labour. If she does, everything disappears again.

I have seen this "break" take as long as an hour. Calf will be fine.

Do you pull? Not me - not yet.

Scenario three - Cow is pushing and two feet are well out - hocks plainly visible and nose coming good. We are 35 minutes into the action. She gets tired and stops. She gets up and of course the head and even the feet may disappear - stands there hunched over for a few minutes - turns around lays down and starts to push.

You going to pull? Not me. She has lots left in her.

Scenario four - 45 minutes into this she is finally pushing hard - hips come up off the ground and the head is straight out forward and coming high. This girl is getting serious now. The feet come and then a bit of nose. Looks good - but two or three more of those gut wrenching pushes and she lays flat out on her side -breathing hard. About three to 10 minutes later she repeats this - the real serious pushing - hips and fromt shoulders come up and head stretched out - no advance of feet and nose - stops and lays down hard and flat out.

Do you pull? I do not - I HELP!!

If she lets me I do it right there - even the wild ones will sometimes allow this - otherwise it is off to the squeeze. A double set of half hitches high up on the legs and I wait for her to push - when she does I pull as required.

I never jack the calf out - I have and I can but it is poor technique in my opinion.

I had all four of these happen to me this weekend while I was sitting here on CT and writing about "stuff".

The hard birth ended up being unassisted - while I was prepping the squeeze and getting the "Doctor Frank" put together - I was even ready to do an episiotomy (sp?) and had my lidocaine, scalpel and suture kit all set to go - and she popped it out. Nice bull calf for a first calf heifer.

All calves up and sucking unassisted within the standard 15 - 45 minutes.

That's the nice thing about having the calving area right outside the office window!

You can do what you want, but I truly believe a cow that can do this on her own is a better cow. I also believe that pulling when not necessary may very well be indicative of inexperience in the birthing process and how it truly works.

Perhaps you need to re-think your process for the following reasons.

God, Mom Nature and cows actually do know what they are doing and 99.99% of the time it is far better to stand back and do as little as possible.

Why? Because you will not always be there - that is an impossibility. If you cannot trust your animals to "do the right thing" in the vast number of cases you need to get rid of them and start over.

Everyone who runs cattle needs to breed towards the perfect push button cow - and sometimes helping forces us to miss a very important factor:

Is that cow really worth keeping?

In my personal opinion - if she cannot do it on her own she needs to go down the road. How do you know this if you pull at the first sign of labour?

Let me rephrase that - at the first sign of little feet?

You may actually be creating a herd of animals incapable of calving without help.

You may also be harming the cow. If you have not done so yet, you are - in my opinion - very lucky.

Hope this helps and I hope others who may read this pick up at least one or two small items that may help them down the road.

Regards,

Bez>

 

[Northern Rancher]

Here's my scenario-she starts calving an hour after dark-I have no idea what's going on because I won't see her for eight hours or so-but I know this we haven't pulled one calf in the 14 years from a mature cow-probably 2500 births at least.We do calve out on pasture-it really opened my eyes up to how many calving troubles are man made. When we pen calved we maybe helped 5%. One summer we were droughted out and we were just getting into pasture calving-the only water we had was in a pasture with solid bush-we just bit the bullet and turned them out to calve-we had 90 or so calves in a couple weeks with no problems it kind of made a believer out of me. We run Angus/Hereford/South Devon cattle and kind of use middle of the road bulls in each breed. If your going to push the performance thing a bit harder you probably should babysit alot more I guess.

 

[Limomike]

Excusing the calving ease of Longhorns and Longhorn Crosses...

IMO if one has to pull calves more often than a RARE problem, one needs to re-evaluate their breeding program, mating strategies. Select bulls with LOW birthweight calves, especially on first calf heifers. Otherwise, if a 2nd calf cow's calf has to be pulled, again, something is mis-matched with a breeding program, regardless of the breed.

A producer does NOT have to have 85 to 110# calves...they will catch up with proper nutrition.

I'll take a lighter calf anyday with NO calving problems and make sure the calf and mama have proper nutrition until weaning at ~205 days and both are alive and well, and no post-calving problems.

JMO... ;-)

Truer words were never spoken....

 

[backhoeboogie]

A producer does NOT have to have 85 to 110# calves...they will catch up with proper nutrition.

I'll take a lighter calf anyday with NO calving problems and make sure the calf and mama have proper nutrition until weaning at ~205 days and both are alive and well, and no post-calving problems.

JMO... ;-)

Absolutely RAB. Heck, a 400 lb calf at the sale barn in much better than no calf and another year feeding the cow to get one. My goal is 70 to 80 lb calves and none lost.

 

[KMacGinley]

When does everyone start assisting a cow. Personally I like to start quick. If I ever see a calf going back in that is usually a key to action, especially if you see a nose and then none.

Far too early in my mind - cows have been doing this for many years longer than you and I have been in existence.
We are pretty much 100% unassisted here with calves that are in the 80 - 100 pound range and the odd one going a bit more.

Bez>

True and they have been dying in labor and having dead ones for even longer. I am talking about a small herd of around 50 cows and we cant afford to lose any.

I like this, you pull everyone that you see the nose disappear, you must pull all your calves except the ones coming backwards
I would guess your 50 head is more like 5 or all in your mind. :roll:

 

[BuckemRanch]

To those with more experience. Do you find the cows that have the harder, longer birth take longer to start cycling again?

I have heard this before and was wondering how true it is.

 

[skcatlman]

What an appropriate a thread. I just finished pulling my first calf this calving season the cow is a J model and i have never helped her before. i look on in her at 9 tonight the water bag could be seen when she got up but she wan't pushing, So i put her in a calving pen and thought i'd let her have it herself. I checked at 10 and the water bag was fully out and she was working on having it. I thought at 11 to check again expecting to see her licking the calf off. What i found sent me to the storage room in a hurry for the chains, handels and the puller just in case, There were two feet sticking out both at a wierd angle. When i went in i found the calf sitting sideways with a hind foot and front foot out and the head hanging down i put the rear leg back and put the calf in normal position and brought the head up then pulled it a hard pull by hand. She has had 4 calves for me previously all in the 85 pound range this one was 101 lbs. I always wondered when her pedigree was going to bit me in the butt, her grand sire was a high performance hard calving bull. But i thought if i bred her to my calving ease herd bull like the last 2 years i wouldn't have to worry about her. I guess not. Every once in a while those throw backs come back to haunt a guy. this one is getting the band.
As for going in I usally wait from the onset of loabor (pushing)2 hours on a hfer and see if there is a problem and wait 3 to 4 hours on the cow before going in but after you have calved enough you will see what is happening and if something looks wrong or gives you a bad feeling trust your gut. I am glad i jumped in early tonight.

 

[aplusmnt]

As a fairly new beginner to Cow/Calf raising. This is the hardest thing I have found to learn. I have lost 3 heifers in past couple years to calving problems. Two times it was because I waited to long to help along with they were hard pulls once we did intervene, and once I missed catching her till it was to late in the pasture.

I know one thing, I am paying close attention to the process now and trying to get a better feel on when to help and when to just watch.

Loosing a few dollars will make you up your game.