"polled" hereford bull question

[SRBeef]

I have access to a yearling registered "polled" hereford bull to put in with my small herd of polled hereford cows but need some advice asap.

This bull has very good numbers but has "buttons" where the horns would be and several other bony button-like spots on his head.

- is this common
- is this bull really "polled"
- if I use him will I get polled calves, horned calves, or calves with these buttons or ?
- do these buttons mean anything or matter?

I would appreciate any and all comments, experience or thoughts with animals with these buttons, especially bulls.

I would not be keeping any bulls from him but may want to keep a couple heifers. If I do keep heifers are these buttons a gene which they might retain and pass on?

This bull is fairly low cost for his numbers and conformation. Makes a beginner like me wonder if these buttons are a problem. I would probably keep him for 2 seasons. I do NOT want any horns in my herd. Polled means polled to me.

Thanks for any replies/suggestions.

 

[Aaron]

What you are talking about could be a few things. They could be actual horn stubs. They could be scurs. Or they could be the small bone growths that I refer to as the transition zone between scurs and polled.

Are the buttons about the size of the end of your thumb and covered in hair/skin? If so, then they are those bone growths and you will have polled calves.

 

[Anonymous]

If you can grab them and wiggle them around (ie. they are not attached to the skull) then they are scurs. If they do not move, he is horned.
Scurs will not give you horns. They are a different gene.

I don't understand what you mean by the other buttons... where are they? How big? Can you get us some photos?

 

[KNERSIE]

Here is all the info you need.

http://www.publish.csiro.au/?act=view_f ... R06044.pdf

The buttons where the horns is supposed to be sounds like scurs, scurs can either be loose or attached, it can vary from almost the size of a normal horns to a minute scab.

The "other buttons" I have no idea, warts maybe?

 

[farmwife]

Aaron, Killala, and KNERSIE gave you all the info you need on the scurs. I, too, am confused on the other growths that you mentioned.

It is worth mentioning on the the scurs though that the bull will get a polled registration number if he is scurred. If the scurs are removed, it is assumed that he was horned.

As for getting horned or polled, we used a Starlake bull for several years that had scurs that measured at least 2 inches across. We never got a horned calf from him. This is just our experience.

 

[KNERSIE]

We never got a horned calf from him. This is just our experience.

Very interesting, did you have any horned genetics in your herd that you were aware of or atleast heterozygous poll animals?

Researchers are still debating whether a homozygous bull can be scurred or not. The link I posted states that at the time they thought that scurred animals was always heterozygous.

Just from personal experience, I used a AI sire heavily for 4 seasons and although he was believed to be heterozygous I never had a single horned calf out of him not even out of horned cows and only had two of scurred bullcalves and that was all out of horned cows. The breeder of the bull had more than his fair share of horned calves.(which makes me question how accurate his records was)

 

[farmwife]

We never got a horned calf from him. This is just our experience.

Very interesting, did you have any horned genetics in your herd that you were aware of or atleast heterozygous poll animals?

Researchers are still debating whether a homozygous bull can be scurred or not. The link I posted states that at the time they thought that scurred animals was always heterozygous.

Just from personal experience, I used a AI sire heavily for 4 seasons and although he was believed to be heterozygous I never had a single horned calf out of him not even out of horned cows and only had two of scurred bullcalves and that was all out of horned cows. The breeder of the bull had more than his fair share of horned calves.(which makes me question how accurate his records was)

Not sure on the genotype of our females. I can say, though, that we have only gotten 2 horned calves in the last 10 years. Neither of the cows that calved horned calves were in the herd during the time that we used the scurred bull.

 

[bigbull338]

those loose nubbs are scurrs.wich means he could throw a horned calf every now an then.but running him on polled hereford cows.he should throw all polled calves.

 

[Alan]

Your question on scurs has been answered. As far as the other buttons around the head, the yearling age is when some animals develope warts.... I guessing warts without seeing them.

Alan

 

[S&S Farms]

Go back a couple of pages and you cam see a picture of a heavily scurred bull, topic "Bull and a daughter". I have several scurred bulls and have a few pass on scurs but not very often. I have not had a horned calf out of a scurred bull ever to my knowledge. I now am cocerned about one bull he actually broke one scur off so he is half horned and have polled :cboy:

Jeff

 

[Aaron]

The other growths I am talking about are not scurs, they are attached solid to the skull, but they do not penetrate the skin (therefore not horns). They are bone growths and I have an 8 year old commercial female with some good sized ones that I will have to try an get a picture of. :cboy:

 

[KNERSIE]

The other growths I am talking about are not scurs, they are attached solid to the skull, but they do not penetrate the skin (therefore not horns). They are bone growths and I have an 8 year old commercial female with some good sized ones that I will have to try an get a picture of. :cboy:

I've never seen that before.

 

[farmwife]

The other growths I am talking about are not scurs, they are attached solid to the skull, but they do not penetrate the skin (therefore not horns). They are bone growths and I have an 8 year old commercial female with some good sized ones that I will have to try an get a picture of. :cboy:

We have one cow that appears the same way, but I haven't examined her close enough to know if they penetrate the skin or not. I'll try try and check. She's a 19D granddaughter.

 

[SRBeef]

Thank you all so much for the replies.

I don't know if these are loose or tight - this is a bull! A large one is on the surface just below one eye and is definitely not attached to the skull underneath. The ones where the horns would be are large. There are some other small ones on top of the head. None are covered with skin.

I will try to post a picture later today. The reason for the urgency is that if he is going to throw horned calves I want to get him out of the field with my cows right away. If most likely he will NOT have horned calves or scurred calves I will leave him in. I was not aware of these growths before hand. Otherwise this is a good looking if inexperienced young bull with good numbers.

Thanks again.

 

[rocket2222]

A little off topic, but when I did a little checking with the AHA on the latest findings to try to figure what the chances were of getting a horned calf from my planned mating of a polled heifer [ two scurred bulls in her pedigree, Keynote twice and 29F everyone else polled 5 or 6 generations back] to a horned bull, I was told even though the polled gene is supposed to be dominant, I still had only a 50/50 chance of a polled calf. :?:

 

[SRBeef]

In the link the Knersie graciously supplied above, It seems like scurring is more common when bulls are selected for reproductive organ criteria. The breeder who raised my bull selects heavily on scrotal size along with other numbers. With scrotal criteria scurring is more common but will not necessarily lead to a horned or scurred calf. Interesting if technical link.

I have a problem with my computer that I use for pictures so can't post a photo tonight. I will add one when I can. Thanks for all the input. I learned a lot about this subject today.

 

[farmwife]

That's true except for cases where both parents are heterozygous polled, then the offspring would be 3:1 polled or one is homozygous polled and the other is heterozygous which would give 100% polled offspring.

 

[SRBeef]

Here is about the only picture I have of scurs on the new young bull mentioned. I have circled the scurs where the horns would usually be. There are two of these, one where each horn would be. This was a zoomed in photo, sorry for the low quality.

There are a couple other bony but loose growths on his head near his right eye as circled and also a couple on top of his head that you can't see.

With help of others here I am comfortable that I will not likely have horned calves but any heifers retained may have that recessive scurs gene to pass on.

I will also include a photo of the bull over all - is he worth the trouble? This is a yearling bull.

View attachment 1

here are his epd's

CE +3.2
BW +2.2
WW +57
YW +91
Milk +25
M&G +54
MCE +2.0
SC +1.5
Fat +.01
REA +.39
IMF +.07

His actual was 5.7 yearling frame ht, 38.2 Yearling SC, 90% fat depth, 107% REA 97% IMF

 

[farmwife]

I like the dark red ones. He's a decent bull though it's hard to tell much else from the photo. I would point out that I'd like a little more bone. His numbers are pretty good too.
As for the growth below the eye, I'd say warts -- but here again it's hard to tell from the pic. What does the vet say?

 

[Brandonm22]

I don't know your financial situation and if they aren't warts (an annoying viral disease) I have no idea what kind of bony growths appears all over the head and even below the eye, but WHY are you considering using this bull???? He either is showing symptoms of some sort of disease not already in your herd or he has some sort of genetic abnormality he is likely too pass on. If you don't own him, you don't need to know what is wrong with him. Assume the worst about him and move on to the next bull candidate.