KMacGinley
Well-known member
Can anybody comment on whether Pharo's cattle are any good. I know what MtnMn will say, but anyone else? MtnMn feel free to comment. 
Pharos Bulls and philosophy?
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KMacGinley
Well-known member
Because????
I was hoping to get by with my first answer. The cattle have a poor look to them. The bulls show signs of malnutrition. A lot of them are frame 2 & 3, but because they are not fed, they may genetically breed like a larger framed animal.
They are mostly cooperator bulls, which I don't like, because I think it can dilute the quality and ideas of the breeder. It is just a way of increasing numbers. His sales in the 90's were relatively small and now he has 400+ bulls, you can't do that in a short time frame and keep the same level of quality (if there ever was any) The RA bloodlines originate mostly from Buf Crk Hobo who was at ABS, but Kit has stated that there are no good bulls in the studs. Most of his lines originated there. He also states that his bulls will actually gain weight on pasture, well I would hope so as small and thin as they are.
I will say this he has a lot of good ideas about low cost producers and other views, but I think he has taken his program too far. There has been talk on the board about extremes, well these cattle are every bit as extreme as any program out there, just to the other side.
I hate running anyone down, but these are my thoughts!
They are mostly cooperator bulls, which I don't like, because I think it can dilute the quality and ideas of the breeder. It is just a way of increasing numbers. His sales in the 90's were relatively small and now he has 400+ bulls, you can't do that in a short time frame and keep the same level of quality (if there ever was any) The RA bloodlines originate mostly from Buf Crk Hobo who was at ABS, but Kit has stated that there are no good bulls in the studs. Most of his lines originated there. He also states that his bulls will actually gain weight on pasture, well I would hope so as small and thin as they are.
I will say this he has a lot of good ideas about low cost producers and other views, but I think he has taken his program too far. There has been talk on the board about extremes, well these cattle are every bit as extreme as any program out there, just to the other side.
I hate running anyone down, but these are my thoughts!
purecountry
Well-known member
There have been pics of his bulls posted here before. I'm sure you could find them with a little looking. The comments with the pics were all positive, and I've never seen anyone post pics of a Pharo bull that didn't turn out for them. Myself I'm on the fence as I've only talked to Kit over e-mails. I'd like to see his cattle, but I tend to think he's got things going in the right direction, mainly because the same theories he professes have worked with great success on our own ranch.
Smaller cows have worked better, as has making them work for their keep. And it's worked without hurting the development of any animals.
Smaller cows have worked better, as has making them work for their keep. And it's worked without hurting the development of any animals.
I have visited with Kit at his place and it is a terrible environment for beef cows. Part of his philosophy is to make life hard on the bulls so that when they go to his customers life gets easy and they perform. this is a good idea but he takes it too far into the extreme for me. his yearling bulls might weigh 700-900 and his 2 yr olds were in the 1250 range on average.
they arent all skinny; they are just small. i like the basic concepts Kit founded his program on, but his comments progress just like his environment has: to the extreme and almost unrelated to average producers.
they arent all skinny; they are just small. i like the basic concepts Kit founded his program on, but his comments progress just like his environment has: to the extreme and almost unrelated to average producers.
IL Rancher
Well-known member
I bought a yearling bull from Red Fork through one of his sales... I think he was 1050-1100 pounds as a yearling... Weighs a bit more than that now but isn't a very tall bull... The 1.5 yera old bulls I have bought from the sales were all in good shape when I got them, none of them ever looked shaggy or rough and most are closer to the Frame 4 range of the spectrum. I need to fix a weld on my scale and when I do I will run them through as 2 year olds now... They are well past the 1250 pound area, at least I would be willing to wager they are.
It all boils down to what you want... I prefer the 1200 pound cows over the 1600# ones walking this farm... And the calves they wean are generally comparable in weight.
It all boils down to what you want... I prefer the 1200 pound cows over the 1600# ones walking this farm... And the calves they wean are generally comparable in weight.
I also prefer 1,200 lbs. cows. When you buy a bull at PCC that weighs 700-900 lbs. as Aero mentioned, what is he genetically? He could have genetics to be a power bull in some programs, but could be starved down to his yearling weight. His calves may be nothing like what he is. He used to have quite a bit of BJR Ram 5214 who was a power bull and he was recommending the bulls for use on heifers due to their low bw. Well, was the BW low because the mothers didn't get any groceries? Who knows.
Though I haven't tried any of Kit's genetics I've followed his program closely over the past six years.
Five years ago he was one of only a handful of people talking about optimizing profits rather maximizing production (i.e. heavier weaning weights, more milk, etc.). I've applied much of this thinking into our herd and am benefiting from the changes.
However, like others have commented, I think he is taking his philosophy a little too far. I also have concerns that he rarely discusses in his emails, newsletters, or his website how well Pharo sired cattle perform in the feedlot or on the rail. He seems to have the same philosophy that most producers had 20+ years ago in which there was little regard for how the product performed down the "supply chain" to the feeder, packer, and ultimate consumer. This is unfortunate. In my opinion, for our industry to stay competitive with the more integrated swine and poultry industries, all segments in the beef industry need to work cooperatively to ensure that we are producing a product that will work for all segments; especially the person eating the steak.
I've also heard from a couple folks in CO and NE that there are some feeders who won't bid on lots of feeders if they know that the calves are Pharo influenced calves. Apparently some feeders have the concern that Pharo calves don't perform as well in the feedlot and possibly don't pay as well on the grid.
Five years ago he was one of only a handful of people talking about optimizing profits rather maximizing production (i.e. heavier weaning weights, more milk, etc.). I've applied much of this thinking into our herd and am benefiting from the changes.
However, like others have commented, I think he is taking his philosophy a little too far. I also have concerns that he rarely discusses in his emails, newsletters, or his website how well Pharo sired cattle perform in the feedlot or on the rail. He seems to have the same philosophy that most producers had 20+ years ago in which there was little regard for how the product performed down the "supply chain" to the feeder, packer, and ultimate consumer. This is unfortunate. In my opinion, for our industry to stay competitive with the more integrated swine and poultry industries, all segments in the beef industry need to work cooperatively to ensure that we are producing a product that will work for all segments; especially the person eating the steak.
I've also heard from a couple folks in CO and NE that there are some feeders who won't bid on lots of feeders if they know that the calves are Pharo influenced calves. Apparently some feeders have the concern that Pharo calves don't perform as well in the feedlot and possibly don't pay as well on the grid.
UG,
I feel the same way. We are now in a time where we need to be thinking about the people buying our product and in the end the person eating it. I visit and work with several feedlots around the country, and of course they want big framed grwothy cattle. I think their needs to be a happy medium. But Pharos genetics are going to kill pretty light and I am guessing their will be lots of yield grade 4's. This will ruin the possiblility of a profit in a hurry. I am sure the REA's will be smaller, but I bet the IMF will be a little higher. Just a guess. Frame 2 to 4 in my opinion is to small for the feeders and once the source and age thing catches on, they will really shy away from these kinds of cattle. Their won't be a premium for the bigger high performing cattle but their will be discounts for cattle that don't perform like they want. I have been told by a couple feedlots, that if the cattle are not at least a 5.5 to 6 frame, they will not even bid on them, unless they have a pretty good feeding history on them already.
I feel the same way. We are now in a time where we need to be thinking about the people buying our product and in the end the person eating it. I visit and work with several feedlots around the country, and of course they want big framed grwothy cattle. I think their needs to be a happy medium. But Pharos genetics are going to kill pretty light and I am guessing their will be lots of yield grade 4's. This will ruin the possiblility of a profit in a hurry. I am sure the REA's will be smaller, but I bet the IMF will be a little higher. Just a guess. Frame 2 to 4 in my opinion is to small for the feeders and once the source and age thing catches on, they will really shy away from these kinds of cattle. Their won't be a premium for the bigger high performing cattle but their will be discounts for cattle that don't perform like they want. I have been told by a couple feedlots, that if the cattle are not at least a 5.5 to 6 frame, they will not even bid on them, unless they have a pretty good feeding history on them already.
SEC
Well-known member
I think the holistic approach to raising cattle is fine. What I don't like about "cult" members is that make it seem if you feed your cow hay she is getting free ride.
There are lots of reasons why people manage cattle the way they do.
I do know this much though, if you take a set of cows and cull for specific traits, manage them all the same. They will eventually fit your environment. If those cows start out at 1800lbs and they live in shortgrass, dry country the good ones are those that calve and breed early, from that is where I think the replacement heifers come from. That is one way of selecting for fertility. Those cows that can't cut the mustard will fall by the wayside and over the course of time, the herds mature size will adjust according to the environment.
Likewise the other way, if you take a group of 1100 lb cows and allow them to flourish with good forage they will become heavier cows. If they get short of feed through part of the year, their mature weight will be held back. I have found this with Montana cattle. We had a Traveler 561 daughter from GDAR and she would have weighed 1500lbs and yet in Montana, the grass and surrounding would never let her get that way. We have 2 cows from Hinman's and they would outweigh their Montana herdmates hands down, no help on our part.
As I have stated before, if a cow is a 5 frame cow but weighs 1500lbs....should she be culled because her environment has allowed her to become that way. The frame 3 and 4 cows at Ohlde's that weigh 12-1400, that sounds pretty heavy for moderate framed cows. i do believe this, but I am not certain we should always discredit an animal due to weight.
There are lots of reasons why people manage cattle the way they do.
I do know this much though, if you take a set of cows and cull for specific traits, manage them all the same. They will eventually fit your environment. If those cows start out at 1800lbs and they live in shortgrass, dry country the good ones are those that calve and breed early, from that is where I think the replacement heifers come from. That is one way of selecting for fertility. Those cows that can't cut the mustard will fall by the wayside and over the course of time, the herds mature size will adjust according to the environment.
Likewise the other way, if you take a group of 1100 lb cows and allow them to flourish with good forage they will become heavier cows. If they get short of feed through part of the year, their mature weight will be held back. I have found this with Montana cattle. We had a Traveler 561 daughter from GDAR and she would have weighed 1500lbs and yet in Montana, the grass and surrounding would never let her get that way. We have 2 cows from Hinman's and they would outweigh their Montana herdmates hands down, no help on our part.
As I have stated before, if a cow is a 5 frame cow but weighs 1500lbs....should she be culled because her environment has allowed her to become that way. The frame 3 and 4 cows at Ohlde's that weigh 12-1400, that sounds pretty heavy for moderate framed cows. i do believe this, but I am not certain we should always discredit an animal due to weight.
KMacGinley
Well-known member
BA":25fm8zk4 said:
My favorite book, movie and I try to be like Gus as much as possible.
purecountry
Well-known member
BRG":4kuv0bjs said:
I am no Pharo Fan, and I'm only an expert about MY ranch, but I'm gonna speak up a bit on this topic nonetheless. BRG, you say we need to think about who's buying our calves, and you go on about what feeders and packers want. Do you know that Kit Pharo's operation has been UNsuccessful with the grading of their cattle? Do you know that they have been successful? I sure as hell don't, so I won't speculate. If you want to assume he'd be discounted for their frame, fine.
As for feeders and packers, some of you guys are making it sound like feedlots are the only market for your calves! Since when? Granted it is the place where the VAST majority of animals go in the US and Canada, but it is far from being the ONLY market. My point is that, if your environment works better with smaller framed cattle, or vice-versa, then you need to market those cattle accordingly. If Kit Pharo or myself or Ohlde Cattle Company choose to raise smaller framed cattle better suited to OUR ranches, then we need to be heads-up enough to realize that we have to market them a certain way.
Obviously someone who raises cattle on lush legume pastures that rarely go without moisture can raise something different, so they need to make the same realization and market them to feeders or order buyers or whatever the hell they want. We all need to do what works best for us. And to stand up and say that Pharo type cattle won't do this or won't do that is about as obtuse as saying that Charolais or Simmental are too damn big for the beef industry. It's just not true.
If I walked out into our pastures tomorrow and found that all my 1000-1200 pound cows had been abducted by UFO's and replaced with 1600 pound Simmi-cross gals, I'd figure out a way to make money on them too.(after I called the X-files in) Long-ramble-short, don't criticize how someone else is making a profit. Criticize what DIDN'T make a profit for YOU, or brag about what DID. As they say, you fight your fights, but find the grace in all the things you can't change.
You are right, run what your enviroment lets you run, but just make sure you can market what you have. The average quality steer that is smaller framed, does already get discounted at the barn, just wait till this market falls off. I am just stating what these big yards are telling me, I want my customers to be ready and be able to sell what they have at the best price possible.
Well said. Wish folks would get out of the feedlot mindset and start looking for a better market for there product. On second thought I hope they don't. I don't need the competion.purecountry":1idbf3s4 said:
purecountry
Well-known member
I hear ya. I'd like to convince all of our customers that they should be testing their beef and any other farm fresh products they rear for nutrient density, so they can assure THEIR customers that what they buy is healthy. BUT, you can wish in one hand and crap in the other.....which one gets filled first?
KMacGinley
Well-known member
I suspect that he is producing cattle for the grassfed market and doesn't really give a hoot about carcass results and or quality from a grainfed/feedlot perspective.
The grassfed angle has always intrigued me. I don't see how with rising energy and input costs, industrial agriculture can continue on for the indefinite future. I find my self more and more disgusted with the factory farming/confinement mentality and treating animals like machines.
It seems to me that there has to be a happy medium somewhere.
The grassfed angle has always intrigued me. I don't see how with rising energy and input costs, industrial agriculture can continue on for the indefinite future. I find my self more and more disgusted with the factory farming/confinement mentality and treating animals like machines.
It seems to me that there has to be a happy medium somewhere.
