Paternal Impact

[inyati13]

I was looking at my fall calves last night. Me, Blue and the cows were walking out the big ridge on my farm as the sun was setting. It was beautiful and reminded me why I enjoy this business. The cows were nervous with Blue playing with their calves. The calves were chasing Blue, kicking up their heels. Cute how the calves buddy up and run together as an age group while the moms try to eat and keep an eye on their children at the same time. The lead cow would break out in a hard dash at Blue now and then when she could not tollerate his involvement with the calves. Blue would stop and look at me every now and then to make sure he was not geting into too much trouble. I don't allow him to chase the cattle unless he has a command.

My bull which I sold this week was not a great specimen of the Angus Breed but he has a good disposition. What I noticed this year in his calves were the ones that took after him, were ok but not muscular or fast growers. But some of the cow's calves that were bred to him still were big stout calves and weighted about 745 pounds on average at weaning. I wean at about 7 months and feed them on feed for about 4 weeks before shipping. On average, several of my calves are doing about 100 pounds a month on their mom and one month on feed and grass as they wean. My conclusion is that some of those moms over-powered his less than great paternal qualities. The two best cows are the last of the Hudson Pine/Rocking P Partnership. Clearly evidence that those guys know what they are doing producing performance based cattle.

 

[glacierridge]

Yep.
A good cow will make a good calf with a mediocre bull.
That's how our Eve is.
Wish I had a whole herd like her.
It's even better when you have a good cow and a good bull obviously.
Glad those two girls did right by you.

 

[JWBrahman]

I was looking at my fall calves last night. Me, Blue and the cows were walking out the big ridge on my farm as the sun was setting. It was beautiful and reminded me why I enjoy this business. The cows were nervous with Blue playing with their calves. The calves were chasing Blue, kicking up their heels. Cute how the calves buddy up and run together as an age group while the moms try to eat and keep an eye on their children at the same time. The lead cow would break out in a hard dash at Blue now and then when she could not tollerate his involvement with the calves. Blue would stop and look at me every now and then to make sure he was not geting into too much trouble. I don't allow him to chase the cattle unless he has a command.

My bull which I sold this week was not a great specimen of the Angus Breed but he has a good disposition. What I noticed this year in his calves were the ones that took after him, were ok but not muscular or fast growers. But some of the cow's calves that were bred to him still were big stout calves and weighted about 745 pounds on average at weaning. I wean at about 7 months and feed them on feed for about 4 weeks before shipping. On average, several of my calves are doing about 100 pounds a month on their mom and one month on feed and grass as they wean. My conclusion is that some of those moms over-powered his less than great paternal qualities. The two best cows are the last of the Hudson Pine/Rocking P Partnership. Clearly evidence that those guys know what they are doing producing performance based cattle.

What happens in the pasture and the theories that are bantered about on the internet are usually two different things. The mother has more genetic influence on her sons, this is just a simple fact. The X chromosome holds so much more data than a Y chromosome that it dwarfs it when viewed side by side.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

This post by JWB ("The X chromosome holds so much more data than a Y chromosome that it dwarfs it when viewed side by side.") makes one realize how critical the genetics are in the selection of Bulls for a herd! It also brings to the fore how BALANCE with ALL the EPD and DNA factors will determine whether a breeding program is successful or a failure over time. If a characteristic or trait in a seedstock dam is a little weak, it is expedient for retaining heifers from that mating that the sire of those replacement heifers be stronger in those particular traits than the weaknesses in the dams!

It is called "BALANCE".

DOC HARRIS

 

[AllForage]

Here's one to get em riled up.....


JW,
You are absolutely right about what happens in the pasture is different from theories here. Just like giant weaning weights have nothing to do with profitability yet it is the endless chase. The mother has more genetic influence when mated to a genetically weaker sire. It's God's firewall against the destruction of a species. A prepotent sire will overwhelmingly stamp his calves.

Glacier,
What breeding method has a fighting chance to create more of your favorite cow? I can assure you it ain't the shotgun at the barn one.

Doc,
You are a knowledgeable guy but it is very clear you have only bred cows from theory or paper and pencil. How do you calculate low prepotency and extreme heterozygosity with your epds?

 

[inyati13]

Here's one to get em riled up.....


JW,
You are absolutely right about what happens in the pasture is different from theories here. Just like giant weaning weights have nothing to do with profitability yet it is the endless chase. The mother has more genetic influence when mated to a genetically weaker sire. It's God's firewall against the destruction of a species. A prepotent sire will overwhelmingly stamp his calves.

Glacier,
What breeding method has a fighting chance to create more of your favorite cow? I can assure you it ain't the shotgun at the barn one.
Doc,
You are a knowledgeable guy but it is very clear you have only bred cows from theory or paper and pencil. How do you calculate low prepotency and extreme heterozygosity with your epds?

That deserves a hand. :clap:
Btw, the hand is for your word smithing my friend, not the substance. Just want to be fair. And don't go hard on Anne, she is a very special young lady.

 

[cow pollinater]

Also, which cows are doing what? Heterosis over the more sim type cows in your herd would absolutely give your bull a bunch of help. The closer you get back to angus on the cow side the more his poor performance will show.

 

[Taurus]

I've seen some Wagyu sired calves out of Charolais cows and they looks like grey Wagyu. Sometimes even a medicore bull will knock off butts and guts when bred to beefier cows. Perhaps that's why longhorns and corriente bulls are only popular with the heifers but not on the cows. But I agree with CP's statement.

 

[regolith]

It's also worth remembering the random nature of genetic recombination... meaning with all the information we have available to make breeding decisions the curiosity to see how this match turns out will never, ever fade.

But I reckon the mother has enough influence that daughters/sons of a mediocre bull in a top herd will nearly always look good. It's that second generation that'll bite, if the poor traits aren't corrected with a better bull.

 

[Chuckie]

AllForage,
It appears that the rock you were under was not as heavy as we thought it was.

 

[inyati13]

AllForage,
It appears that the rock you were under was not as heavy as we thought it was.

AllForage is ok, don't be too hard on him but I like that line. I like it a lot. :lol:

 

[inyati13]

It's also worth remembering the random nature of genetic recombination... meaning with all the information we have available to make breeding decisions the curiosity to see how this match turns out will never, ever fade.

But I reckon the mother has enough influence that daughters/sons of a mediocre bull in a top herd will nearly always look good. It's that second generation that'll bite, if the poor traits aren't corrected with a better bull.

As one who is more a student of genetics than a breeder, referring to myself, I appreciate your message.

 

[Bigfoot]

In my opinion, and eared cow will pass on less ear and leather than an eared bull will. Say that 3 times fast. It's probably not the case, but I've made that observation on my herd any way.

 

[inyati13]

In my opinion, and eared cow will pass on less ear and leather than an eared bull will. Say that 3 times fast. It's probably not the case, but I've made that observation on my herd any way.

:lol: you are on to something there

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Here's one to get em riled up.....


JW,
You are absolutely right about what happens in the pasture is different from theories here. Just like giant weaning weights have nothing to do with profitability yet it is the endless chase. The mother has more genetic influence when mated to a genetically weaker sire. It's God's firewall against the destruction of a species. A prepotent sire will overwhelmingly stamp his calves.

Glacier,
What breeding method has a fighting chance to create more of your favorite cow? I can assure you it ain't the shotgun at the barn one.

Doc,
You are a knowledgeable guy but it is very clear you have only bred cows from theory or paper and pencil. How do you calculate low prepotency and extreme heterozygosity with your epds?

All Forage-

To address your question-
'You are a knowledgeable guy but it is very clear you have only bred cows from theory or paper and pencil. How do you calculate low prepotency and extreme heterozygosity with your epds?"[/quote]
is complex and obscure because it follows the same pathways as defining "Low" and "Extreme". How LOW is Low? . . . and how EXTREME is Extreme?

In attempting to determine "Low Prepotency" we are dealing with a collection of mathematical unknowns and the ability or means of one or both parents to transmit traits or characteristics to potential progeny . There are those who reject that theory on the basis that it is an unproven hypothesis. And - - then there are those who do not buy into that "unproven" presupposition - myself being one of them - because I do not attempt to "calculate low prepotency". And - because they are not "My EPD's. They are predicated by the efforts of National Cattle Evaluation (NCE).

. . . and by the same token, the evaluation of "Extreme Heterozygosity" is a specious endeavor predicated on the basis of a heterozygote having two different alleles at a single locus on a chromosome, and therefore not breeding true for the particular trait or characteristic in discussion. . . . and, relating to your particular reference here, the term "extreme", in this case, is an unnecessary oxy-moron predicate adjective preceding "Heterozygosity". :bang: :deadhorse:

Oh - - and by the way - - your "Assumption" that "- - it is very clear that you have only bred cows from theory or paper and pencil" is also a spurious interjection, and I have the hat and belt buckle to verify that fact. :lol2: - - - - also a few bruises, contusions and scars to remind me if I happen to forget occasionally! :cowboy:

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

I must say Doc that was an especially impressive can of whoopass you just served up!. It always amazes me that someone a couple of thousand miles from you can "know" what a 90 year old man has done in his life and have never met him!

 

[Chuckie]

OK, some of you are going to fuss at me, but I feel that the bull needs to put all that he can in the works. In commercial cattle, you can get by with less of a bull, but heck, that is what people with the Seedstock are trying to do; Making super bulls and cows to get better gains for the farmers that take their animals to market. Make the calves gain and grow off faster.
For "Seedstock," I will disagree with it making a difference on the bull. I have seen it work with cows myself. Different bulls do definitely create different quality calves in good cows.

It concerns me if a bull continues to put "bull" calves on the ground, and none are herd animals, ( lower end non registered commercial bull) then I will question the quality of the heifer he produces. Will the heifers be capable of producing a strong herd bull? If the cow cannot produce a strong bull, then she will not be able to produce a heifer that will produce a strong bull calf. Unless...some of the better genes get together, and you are one of the lucky ones that had a miracle out in your pasture.
This is where the very nice feminine cow produces the strong bull.

So, yes, in my opinion, it does make a difference. Boomer, my first bull, he did not have one bad heifer on the farm. Grit, I didn't think he was going to have one heifer period. Ha-ha!!!
Boomer was a big influence while he was here, and he produced the best calves out of all our bulls. He was a Leachman Boomtime bull.
Now that I have to replace my last bull Grit, I am really dreading it, because I pick all the bulls that go for the big bucks.
I was watching the 44-Farm Sale today, and it made me feel sick at my stomach. Many of thousands of dollars for the very top.
So pick the top ten and watch them sale for all the top prices, and then decide which bull you would pick for no 11, 12,13,14,...etc out of 120 bulls. I might have to bid on 119.

 

[Chuckie]

Doc, your making me blush!!!! :pretty: :heart:

 

[Commercialfarmer]

I must say Doc that was an especially impressive can of whoopass you just served up!. It always amazes me that someone a couple of thousand miles from you can "know" what a 90 year old man has done in his life and have never met him!

I just hope I can learn and remember half the words he throws around at that age, much less put them into a sequence that makes sense and has a point.

 

[inyati13]

I was looking at my fall calves last night. Me, Blue and the cows were walking out the big ridge on my farm as the sun was setting. It was beautiful and reminded me why I enjoy this business. The cows were nervous with Blue playing with their calves. The calves were chasing Blue, kicking up their heels. Cute how the calves buddy up and run together as an age group while the moms try to eat and keep an eye on their children at the same time. The lead cow would break out in a hard dash at Blue now and then when she could not tollerate his involvement with the calves. Blue would stop and look at me every now and then to make sure he was not geting into too much trouble. I don't allow him to chase the cattle unless he has a command.

My bull which I sold this week was not a great specimen of the Angus Breed but he has a good disposition. What I noticed this year in his calves were the ones that took after him, were ok but not muscular or fast growers. But some of the cow's calves that were bred to him still were big stout calves and weighted about 745 pounds on average at weaning. I wean at about 7 months and feed them on feed for about 4 weeks before shipping. On average, several of my calves are doing about 100 pounds a month on their mom and one month on feed and grass as they wean. My conclusion is that some of those moms over-powered his less than great paternal qualities. The two best cows are the last of the Hudson Pine/Rocking P Partnership. Clearly evidence that those guys know what they are doing producing performance based cattle.

What happens in the pasture and the theories that are bantered about on the internet are usually two different things. The mother has more genetic influence on her sons, this is just a simple fact. The X chromosome holds so much more data than a Y chromosome that it dwarfs it when viewed side by side.

Right on, JW. The origins of the Y chromosome which is the one that determines sex in Mammals not only has less base pairs because it has less area but over its existence, it has shed genes. Nevertheless, the y chromosome accounts for sex-linked characteristics and they can be the site of genetic defects.