Ongoing calving problems

[blacksnake]

I have a small herd of apporx. 18-20 cows. I have been breeding the heifers and either keeping or selling the better ones. Most of the bulls become steers and are used for freezer beef. I have been doing this for about 9 years. In this time I have had one calf that I lost at calving. My problem is I don't know how to handle one customer who has purchased from me multiple times. All of the heifers that I have sold him have had pelvic measurements and scored good. He seems to have a lot of calving problems. He normally runs between 10-15 mother cows and it seems he averages about 2 calves lost per year. In the past year he has also lost a couple of cows during calving. I like to have happy customers so I have been guaranteeing a live calf. I have refunded some of the purchase price or have paid the vet bill when he had to have one pulled. He recently lost a calf to a cow that I had sold him a couple of years ago. It was the third calf for this cow, the first two calved ok. The customer is also a friend that I buy hay from so that complicates matters on how to handle the situation. I think he must be doing something wrong, just not sure how to approach him about it. My guess is lack of minerals. I think hiss loss of calves, especially on heifers, can hurt my reputation since I sell to several others in the area. No one else has had any calving problems. Should I just refuse to sell to this person?
Thanks for any advice

 

[Kingfisher]

I have a small herd of apporx. 18-20 cows. I have been breeding the heifers and either keeping or selling the better ones. Most of the bulls become steers and are used for freezer beef. I have been doing this for about 9 years. In this time I have had one calf that I lost at calving. My problem is I don't know how to handle one customer who has purchased from me multiple times. All of the heifers that I have sold him have had pelvic measurements and scored good. He seems to have a lot of calving problems. He normally runs between 10-15 mother cows and it seems he averages about 2 calves lost per year. In the past year he has also lost a couple of cows during calving. I like to have happy customers so I have been guaranteeing a live calf. I have refunded some of the purchase price or have paid the vet bill when he had to have one pulled. He recently lost a calf to a cow that I had sold him a couple of years ago. It was the third calf for this cow, the first two calved ok. The customer is also a friend that I buy hay from so that complicates matters on how to handle the situation. I think he must be doing something wrong, just not sure how to approach him about it. My guess is lack of minerals. I think hiss loss of calves, especially on heifers, can hurt my reputation since I sell to several others in the area. No one else has had any calving problems. Should I just refuse to sell to this person?
Thanks for any advice

Your bull or his?

 

[bse]

Are you selling bred heifers or open? Sounds like maybe he needs different bull or a better vaccination program maybe mineral to many varibles to know that but if your guaranteeing a live calf even after 3rd calf i think i want to do busineess with you when i sell them there yours after you leave my place unless there is someting ive done knock on wood never had to take one back.

 

[randiliana]

I agree with bse, there are a lot of reasons to lose a calf. If they are bred to your bull, I see no problem guaranteeing a live calf. If they are bred to his bull, well, that is a different ball game! I sure wouldn't expect a live calf guarantee after the first calf!

 

[farmwriter]

I agree with bse, there are a lot of reasons to lose a calf. If they are bred to your bull, I see no problem guaranteeing a live calf. If they are bred to his bull, well, that is a different ball game! I sure wouldn't expect a live calf guarantee after the first calf!

Agree completely.

 

[showing71]

I agree with bse, there are a lot of reasons to lose a calf. If they are bred to your bull, I see no problem guaranteeing a live calf. If they are bred to his bull, well, that is a different ball game! I sure wouldn't expect a live calf guarantee after the first calf!

Agree completely.

:nod: I wouldn't be guaranteeing a live calf if I didn't breed it to my bull.

 

[blacksnake]

I am selling as bred heifers. I am only guaranteeing the first calve to be live. The heifers are mainly AI bred to calving ease bulls. I am using the same bulls for the heifers I keep and sell to others. He is using his bull for the breeding after the first calves. I had asked him about minerals in the past and he said sometimes he supplies some but not always. Maybe he is just having a string of bad luck. Thanks for every one's response.

 

[Angus Cowman]

sounds like if he is the only one having problems then it is management or lack of
one of the first things I would be concerned with is nutrition either too much or lack of both can produce calving losses
or like you mention a mineral deficiency
I think I would quit selling him any hfrs

 

[pdfangus]

i had a guy get mad at me once because a bull I sold him two years later stepped in a hole and broke his leg.....

And I had the audacity to think that was not my fault.....

 

[dun]

i had a guy get mad at me once because a bull I sold him two years later stepped in a hole and broke his leg.....

And I had the audacity to think that was not my fault.....

Sure it was. You hadn;t bred the smarts into him to keep him from stepping in holes. Anyone can see that!

 

[angus9259]

It's tough to say what should be done because only you know the relationship. Is he giving you a great deal on hay? If not, seems like there are other places to buy hay. If so, is the deal good enough to eat some cattle costs? Eventually, everyone's guarantee of workmanship with expire - unfortunately, you've probably set a pattern with this fella so that he expects reimbursement for quite a few things. If you do keep selling to him - lay out specifically what you will cover and for how long. Certainly there are huge number of factors outside your control relative to calving issues that could be causing these things.

 

[msscamp]

I like to have happy customers so I have been guaranteeing a live calf. Thanks for any advice

You cannot guarantee a live calf unless you have complete control over the health program, what bull the heifer/cow is bred too, the feed program, and the circumstances the animals are calved out under. Once that animal leaves your property, you lose control over most - if not all - of those things. My .02 on the topic.

 

[George]

If you are selling them and guaranteeing the first calf to be alive,i would defiantly be interested in buying all your bred heifer's.The best you should be doing is guaranteeing,the heifer is checked to be safe in calf.Once that heifer leaves your house,then it should be all there responsabilty to make sure they get that live calf!As for the neighbour loosing calves and cows at calving,i would say with out seeing what is going on.What is the birth weight of the bulls he is using?That would be my first guess.

 

[TexasBred]

I am selling as bred heifers. I am only guaranteeing the first calve to be live. The heifers are mainly AI bred to calving ease bulls. I am using the same bulls for the heifers I keep and sell to others. He is using his bull for the breeding after the first calves. I had asked him about minerals in the past and he said sometimes he supplies some but not always. Maybe he is just having a string of bad luck. Thanks for every one's response.

That is your mistake. No way you can guarantee a Live Calf. Why not just guarantee the cattle "bred"???? Anything more and you better keep that cow in your care until that "live calf" sucks. What kind of guarantee does he give you on the hay months after you buy it??

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

In the purebred business we have to guarantee our cattle to be breeders. PERIOD. If you sell a bred heifer, she is guaranteed PREGNANT. If you sell an open heifer, you guarantee she will BREED. Way too many things can go wrong that you have no control over if you guarantee a live calf.
I would keep selling, with more DEFINED guarantees. He is using and abusing your friendship.

 

[shaz]

Rented a "heifer" bull this year and had a real trainwreck on my hands. The calves were huge and my heifers put poor growth on during the drought.

I feel his pain. Probably should've sold but ....

 

[plumber_greg]

I may be wrong, but aren't pelvic measurments more of a comparision of the cattle in a particular group, or is there a number that says this heifer is pelvic measured to be ok? Not sure. gs

 

[dun]

I may be wrong, but aren't pelvic measurments more of a comparision of the cattle in a particular group, or is there a number that says this heifer is pelvic measured to be ok? Not sure. gs

Anything over I think it's 145 or 155 at yearling is big enough. There are studys (one of which has been posted on here) that gives the size calf that should be able to be born unassisted based on pelvic measurements. The only real catch I see is some friends of ours did pelvics on all of their yearling heifers and bred them to a bull that only threw around 70 pound calves. They had to pull every one of them. It seems that the heifers sire must throw some odd ball growth deal. Whne they did pelvic on them as 2 year olds there was only a fractional increase in size from yearling. They quit using that bull and culled his daughters and haven;t had a problem since.