? on Calving

[curtis]

A friend of mind lost a young cow last month from tryin to have a bull calf that weighed 100 pounds. We pulled the calf an he is doing find now an is one month old. The cow prolapsed an it being a holiday we could not find a vet anywhere an none of us knew how to put her back together.
Sadly she died a little later. One of the cattleman there said that he thought she was too fat to have a calf. This was to be her second calf. This makes 2 cows he has lost in the last 13 months from the same bull.
So, my question is what kind of shape do you want your cows to be when its time to have the calf.
Do you want slim, fat or somewhere in the middle?
The cow in question had been on bermuda grass hay an protein tubbs. Is this a weight problem or a bull problem?
TIA Curtis

 

[watso059]

What kind of bull is it?

 

[rwtherefords]

Why do you need protein tubs to keep your cattle in condition? Grass is all they should need, IMO.

 

[curtis]

He,s a fullblood Limousin .

 

[curtis]

Protein tubbs are used an recommended by our vet.
Thanks, Curtis

 

[msscamp]

We want ours in good shape, but not fat. Probably not much help, but I'm still working on figuring out the BCS system - we've always just eyeballed them. Fat cows or heifers have a tendency to develop calving problems. A 100 lb calf is a big calf, depending on the breed and size of this heifer, for a 3 year old to handle. The method and speed of pulling a calf this size could, I believe, also contribute to a prolapse. Again, depending on the size of the heifer and her condition. As far as whether this is a bull problem or a weight problem, could be either or a combination of both. There are a lot of bulls out there that will work fine for cows, but their calves are a mite big for heifers. Just my thoughts.

 

[norriscathy]

Protein tubbs are used an recommended by our vet.
Thanks, Curtis

Some of the vets around here actually sell them. BUT at $600 to $700 per ton they are outrageously high!! Try a good range meal mix at around $200 per ton and the same protein.

 

[rwtherefords]

Try feeding your cows just grass. Any cow should be able to produce a calf a year on good grass alone.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Try feeding your cows just grass. Any cow should be able to produce a calf a year on good grass alone.

What are you some kind of odd backward thinking rejected Cattleman. You are not getting filthy rich feeding your cows out of a sack as they have no operating expense. Dang it is actually good to read a post of a cattleman that knows how to tend cows rwtherefords.

 

[Crowderfarms]

Sometimes I think people forget Cattle are Herbivores.(You know, Grass Eaters).

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Try feeding your cows just grass. Any cow should be able to produce a calf a year on good grass alone.

IF...and a BIG "If"... IF your pasture grass is high quality and contains ALL of the required major and micro-nutrients, plus needed salt, THEN they might not need any supplements.

On the other hand, I have never seen or heard of any pasture grass that could provide all of those things. In drought and/or winter grazing times, it is especially important to provide adequate minerals to ones cattle. Unless, of course, one can tolerate and accept some occasional stunted, calving problems, bony, un-bred, or bulls that shoot blanks, sick, ill, or dead cattle from lack of proper year-around nutrition.

;-)

 

[Brandonm2]

Try feeding your cows just grass. Any cow should be able to produce a calf a year on good grass alone.

I agree with you to a certain point. This IS January though and I am not comfortable telling people not to supplement when I have not been in their field. When your grass is played out or real low quality you have to supplement or the cows starve. If his vet has been on the property and seen the cows, the forage, and the hay and he says that they need to supplement I am not ready to doubt him.

 

[rwtherefords]

Try feeding your cows just grass. Any cow should be able to produce a calf a year on good grass alone.

IF...and a BIG "If"... IF your pasture grass is high quality and contains ALL of the required major and micro-nutrients, plus needed salt, THEN they might not need any supplements.

On the other hand, I have never seen or heard of any pasture grass that could provide all of those things. In drought and/or winter grazing times, it is especially important to provide adequate minerals to ones cattle. Unless, of course, one can tolerate and accept some occasional stunted, calving problems, bony, un-bred, or bulls that shoot blanks, sick, ill, or dead cattle from lack of proper year-around nutrition.

;-)

Come ON! :shock:
I wasn't talking about minerals and salt! I was commenting on protein tubs, etc. Seems many cattle producers are bent on developing cattle that require being propped up with grain & protein.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Try feeding your cows just grass. Any cow should be able to produce a calf a year on good grass alone.

IF...and a BIG "If"... IF your pasture grass is high quality and contains ALL of the required major and micro-nutrients, plus needed salt, THEN they might not need any supplements.

On the other hand, I have never seen or heard of any pasture grass that could provide all of those things. In drought and/or winter grazing times, it is especially important to provide adequate minerals to ones cattle. Unless, of course, one can tolerate and accept some occasional stunted, calving problems, bony, un-bred, or bulls that shoot blanks, sick, ill, or dead cattle from lack of proper year-around nutrition.

;-)

Bill, RWH and I are talkin about commericial cattlemen making money with grass hay and minerals. I am not selling fu fu cattle or horns we are talkin about cattle maitaining a decent BCS and producing. I am not in the business to support the local feed store. Somewhere on this board these wantabees got the idea that cattle had to be rolling fat to be in good condition and produce, thats hogwash plan and simple.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Body Condition
Prior to the last trimester of gestation, females should
be evaluated for body condition. Those in thin condition
(body condition score 4 or less on a 1 to 9 scale) should
be fed separately from those in moderate or higher
condition so their dietary energy level may be increased.
By calving time, the goal would be to have mature cows in
moderate condition (score of 5) and first-calf heifers in
high moderate condition (score of 6). Overfeeding females
to the point of obesity has been shown to increase the
incidence of dystocia. Texas researchers reported that as
fatness score increased above a moderate level in
first-calf Santa Gertrudis heifers, calving difficulty
increased. They concluded that efforts should be made
prior to calving to prevent overconditioning of females in
an effort to reduce dystocia.

This will help you to score a cow.

BCS Description
1 Skeletal structure is easily visible and sharp to touch in the shoulder, scapula, all ribs, dorsal vertebral and transverse spinous processes, hooks, greater trachantor, pins. No evidence of fat and very little muscling.

2 No fat deposits, some muscling in hindquarters. Skeletal structures are still seen - shoulder, ribs, dorsal and transverse vertebral spinous processes are seen and easily felt. Spaces between vertebrae are easily seen.
3 Some muscle depletion. Beginning to have slight fat over fore ribs, loin and back. Backbone is visible but spaces between vertebrae are not easily seen but dorsal and transverse processes can be identified easily by touch.
4 Some fat cover over fore ribs, but the 12th and 13th ribs are seen in most animals. Full, straight muscling in the hindquarters. Backbone is visible but spaces between vertebrae are not seen. Dorsal and transverse vertebral processes can be identified easily by touch but have a rounded feel.

5 The 12th and 13th ribs are not seen unless the animals are shrunk. Dorsal and transverse vertebral processes cannot be seen and are felt only by firm palpation. Areas on each side of the tail are filled but not plump. Full muscling in the hindquarters with some bulge.

6 Ribs are not seen. Hindquarters are plump and full. Fat cover on each side of tail head and in brisket. Noticeable sponginess over ribs and loin. Firm pressure is required to palpate transverse processes of vertebrae.

7 Abundant fat over ribs and brisket. Pones of fat on each side of tail head. Ends of dorsal and transverse vertebral processes are difficult to feel. Back appears square and smooth. Only an outline of the hooks and pins is seen.

8 Extensive fat deposits in brisket, over ribs, loin and around tail head. Animal appears smooth and blocky. Bone structure is not seen. Fat covering is thick an patchy, very spongy.

9 Extremely fat thick brisket, ribs and loin. Tail head is buried. Bone structure is not seen.

 

[norriscathy]

But Burno; how can you feed them separately when all they can have is grass and hay? Sure glad you've got some that good quality 12% hay with all this drough going on!

 

[Running Arrow Bill]

Ok y'all... 8)

I'm not talking about Longhorns or any other breed. Just cattle (bovine) in general.

Livestock need a balanced diet to function well. If one's hay or forage is poor quality (aka low in protein, etc.) then they need "something" to supplement. Also, I am NOT talking about over-conditioning or creating "fat" cattle. IMO if one's pasture or hay has low protein analysis (e.g., 5 to 8%) then they do need a protein boost. This can come in a lot of ways: range cubes, "molasses/protein tubs", or other supplements. According to my research, cattle need roughly 10-12% protein year-around to function their best.

So, it would be interesting to know what the other poster's pasture grass tested out to be... If he or she wasn't supplementing and his or her cattle looked good, then their pasture was probably high quality, even at this time of the year.

 

[Caustic Burno]

But Burno; how can you feed them separately when all they can have is grass and hay? Sure glad you've got some that good quality 12% hay with all this drough going on!

Its not hard to feed cows separately that is what good old cross fencing is for. They don't pick the pasture or who there playmates are I do.
Yep I still have hay and will when the grass pops this spring.

 

[buckaroo_bif]

I prefer heifers a bcs of 6 and cows a 5.

good info here on bcs> http://www.cowbcs.info/

too thin and they won't re-bred very soon. !

bif

 

[msscamp]

Caustic and Bif, thanks for the info!