Normally, I wouldn't do this but...

[East Caney]

I want to pick your minds.

If you had to have one of these two problems, which would it be?

1. Your cows milk too heavily making them harder keepers.

2. Your cows don't milk heavily enough preventing your terminal cross calves from reaching their genetic growth potential.

At first, I thought maybe #2. I figured the cows would breed back having stayed in good condition, though the calves would be lighter (all other variables equal). But then, I thought more lbs of calf sold could produce enough additional income to supplement the harder keepers with the needed nutrition. Now, that is why I thought I'd ask the board. Any educated responses appreciated. I realize the ideal situation would be to have a complete herd that perfectly matches the land's forage production.

 

[KNERSIE]

There are a lot more variables that decides whether a cow is a easy keeper or not, not just milking ability.

It is quite possible to have heavy milkers that are easy keepers as well. I would rather start with heavy milkers and breed them up to make them easier keeping and cull those that produces on a higher plane than the environment can support, than sit with a herd of poor milkers trying to breed them up to better milkers and in the meanwhile have a low income because of sorry calves.

If you have heavy milkers, you can always manage your forage better for that period between calving till the end of the breeding season and wean heavy calves at a younger age if neccesary.

The ideal would still be easy keeping cows with adequate milk, and that is obtainable.

 

[novatech]

There are a lot more variables that decides whether a cow is a easy keeper or not, not just milking ability.

It is quite possible to have heavy milkers that are easy keepers as well. I would rather start with heavy milkers and breed them up to make them easier keeping and cull those that produces on a higher plane than the environment can support, than sit with a herd of poor milkers trying to breed them up to better milkers and in the meanwhile have a low income because of sorry calves.

If you have heavy milkers, you can always manage your forage better for that period between calving till the end of the breeding season and wean heavy calves at a younger age if neccesary.


The ideal would still be easy keeping cows with adequate milk, and that is obtainable.

I agree with KNERSIE
You can use them to breed more milk into your herd but that is all. Maybe that is why they call them hard keepers.
You may be better off selling them as a pair and buy easy keepers with good milk.
I can see no gain in keeping them. Wean early so they will breed back, or leave them on and they don,t breed back.

 

[ALACOWMAN]

trying to manage your forage with heavy milkers can be difficult spring calving and lush spring pastures can blow a bag out and ruin some quarters. that newborn can't keep her milked down enough . or fall calving keeping weight on them during those winter months.

 

[Cowdirt]

I want to pick your minds.

If you had to have one of these two problems, which would it be?

1. Your cows milk too heavily making them harder keepers.

2. Your cows don't milk heavily enough preventing your terminal cross calves from reaching their genetic growth potential.

At first, I thought maybe #2. I figured the cows would breed back having stayed in good condition, though the calves would be lighter (all other variables equal). But then, I thought more lbs of calf sold could produce enough additional income to supplement the harder keepers with the needed nutrition. Now, that is why I thought I'd ask the board. Any educated responses appreciated. I realize the ideal situation would be to have a complete herd that perfectly matches the land's forage production.

Some really good points have been made. I would come down on the side of the heavy milkers, but not for long. I'd work my way out of that situation as quickly as possible. Hard keeping is just one of a myriad of problems with heavy milkers. Bad udders, scouring calves, bags too low for new borns to get on easily, the list goes on and on. One of my primary goals has been udder and milk optimization. I started out with the wrong idea. I like an udder that the calf has to turn his head up for as opposed to having to get down low under the udder. That is not the natural inclination for calves. My 1 cents worth.

 

[East Caney]

Just wondering which would be harder. I'm not suggesting cows that hardly milk (for easy keepers). I'm suggesting (for example only) hereford cows that give average milk for that breed having Charolais calves from a high growth bull.

Wouldn't you need herefords that milk heavier than the average to help those calves reach full potential?

Or, would you rather keep your herd's milking ability around avg for the breed and lose a few lbs overall but still gain because of the heterosis between the two breeds?

And while I'm asking, how much can one expect heterosis to affect milking ability (assuming an f1 cow herd).

 

[dun]

I don;t have any studys to back me up. but it seems that our F1s don;t really milk any heavier then the parent breeds, but they do wean heavier calves. Maybe them ik is higher quality or the calf assimilates it better, I sure don;t know. If you're going to use high gain terminal bulls, you better have cows that can support that growth. Growthy rangy claves without the meat on their bones get docked pretty hard.
It's all a happy medium kind of deal. You need cows that can perform within your managment system and environemtn and they need to be bred to bulls that throw calves capable of expressing their potential with the resources (milk/grass) available.

 

[East Caney]

Dun, that makes a lot of sense. I read something on here talking about smaller framed stockers getting docked. Are you saying that large framed cattle get docked also if they aren't heavy?

I read a lot about overfed cattle being docked. So, is it safe to say that the cows need to raise the calf to full genetic potential without any grain being fed to the calf? Is it the grain fed calves that get docked for being too fat? And is that because any fat that I put on the calf is fat that the stocker operation can't put on the animal?

 

[dun]

Over and under conditioned calves both get docked, but it seems that the over conditioned ones get hit worse.
You would think that the feeders would like to see the possible compensatory gain on those rangy claves. It might be they get docked just because they can dock them.

dun