Newbie with a plan needs input...

[cmjust0]

Hey everybody.. Semi-longtime lurker, first time poster..

I bought a fallow central Kentucky farm of about 25 acres almost a year ago, and I've spent that time getting equipment together, cleaning up, and trying to figure the best way for me to run cattle...

The farm is basically basically divided up between good fescue pasture and open woods. There's not enough room to cut hay, so if decided to overwinter animals, I'd have to buy it. I'm trying to avoid that -- at least in my first attempt with cattle..

I'll have to put up fences around two sides of the property, and I've pretty much decided to install Hi-Tensile myself. I have some fencing experience, decent tools/equipment, and some knowledge of Hi-T, so I should be OK there.. Going to go w/ a 6 strand set up, with three close to the ground in case I ever want to add goats to my lineup.. 4 hots, 2 earth gounds is the plan.

I have two barns, one for tobacco and one that was a stock/general purpose barn.. The latter has what I guess was used as a crowding pen and a working chute in one corner, minus the headgate.. It also has a crowding pen and a loading chute in the other corner... Both are very angular and small - they wouldn't flow well.. Each one affords cattle the opportunity to force you into a tedious game of whack-a-mole, which isn't good.. I could use either in a pinch, but I'd sooner tear all that out and start again with a good plan in mind to make better (safer) use of the space.. Since I won't raise any tobacco, the big tobacco barn will make one hell of an equipment shed and the stock/general purpose barn can become a DEDICATED stock barn. Maybe even with concrete floors someday..

As far as the cattle go, I'm planning on buying weanling steers in the spring, keeping them through the summer, and then selling in the fall. I think that's called backgrounding? Not sure.. I see it as selling grass as a value added product in the form of BEEF.

I know that spring is the most expensive time to buy, and that fall is the least profitable time to sell, but I don't see that I have much of a choice. I'm about 30 miles from either of two auctions that happen to be about 60 miles away from each other. I'm right in the middle.. One is more expensive than the other, so I plan to buy at the cheap barn and sell at the expensive barn, which might offset some of the seasonal difference.

Anyway, I'm thinking that since I have a total of 22 or so acres *available* to them (25 minus house/yard/barns/etc), I could get away with 10 or so steers.. I do have a pond also, and I think it would service 10 steers without much trouble..

My plan had been to get weanlings at about 400lbs, but what I'm seeing is that most cattle around here wean higher than that.. Like, 500-600lbs.. 350-450 are available, but I'm not sure what I'd be getting.. My guess is that they'd be jerked right off the udder and trucked to the auction, making for a very unpleasant transfer to my pastures.. Unhappy cattle aren't productive cattle, so I've learned..

I haven't developed any personal preference to breed, but I have worked a bit around Herefords.. They seem nice enough, I guess.. Not too crazy. Most everything else around seems to be some kind of Hereford cross... With steers, though, I'm not sure what reason I'd have to be looking too hard at breed.. I think I probably need to focus on the individual animals and how the individual would probably sell.. In other words, no oddballs..

Anyway, I just wanted to bounce all that off you folks.. Sorry for the uber-long first post. :lol:

 

[dun]

Along with the fencing, look at the fertility of your pastures. A soil test is cheap and will keep you from spending money on something you don;t need.
Fence off the pond and fix up a method for them to water from it without getting in it.
If the calves in your area typically wean in the 5-6 weight category, that's what to get. If it's smaller there's probably a reason, i.e. young, poor genetics, poor feed, poor...................
Worm them as they come off the truck, a pour-on works well for that. Keep an eye on them for a week or so to make sure you catch the snots or some other malady they may have contracted in the weaning, shipping, selling, shipping phase. After a week, vaccinate them and turn them out. Rotational graze them, provide minerals and salt, shade doesn;t hurt either.
Around here those that are just grazed and not grained and fed for maximum gain are usually referred to as stockers. There's an e-mail available pub called stocker news or some such that may be able to help you with the marketing end.
Good luck

dun

 

[mgman]

As usual very good advice from dun! The only thing I would add is to maybe consider looking for calves that you could buy directly from someone's farm rather than going through the sale barn. I'm not a big fan of buying from the sale barn.

 

[Susie David]

Agree...it sounds like you have a real good idea of how you want to proceed. We're riding record high prices that haven't hit a seasonal decline, at least not up here, in fact some steers are selling higher than they did last summer.
I'd start visiting local producers and making some contacts and let the folks know that you'll be looking to buy some steers soon. Sure that there are some folks close to you on the board that would be more than happy to PM you with some advise.
Your fence, six HT, will probably hold anything that you could encounter, they quickly learn to respect even one hot wire.
Herfs are a way to go but I've found that they take a little longer to get a real nice finish on them, if that is a way you may want to go.
Good luck to you...DMc

 

[cmjust0]

Wow! Great reponses in record time!

dun:

I don't know enough about pasture quality to know whether or not fertilizing is necessary, but I hadn't planned on it.. I think it's healthy, because by june this past summer, the fescue was so thick that it choked out even the few thistles that got an early start. It got way over the hood of my old 8N before I was able to get a brush mower... There's probably more to quality than meets the eye, though, so maybe I'll get it done anyway..

And, fencing off the pond is a great idea.. Mine's an excavated/bermed pond at the low end of a high bench, and I think it's fed primarily by a weepy spring.. In any case, it's downhill in almost every direction, so I should be able to rig something by gravity..

In fact, that might help with rotational grazing, because I was wondering how to divide property that only had one water source.. I'd all but given up on the idea, but I could fence off the pond and put multiple troughs on it in different sections...

Sounds like you're suggesting I keep the calves out of the big pasture for a time after they come home.. I was planning on doing that, but I wasn't sure why. Now I know, I suppose.. :lol: As far as worming/vaccination, do you think I'd need to do that more than once if I'm only planning to keep them from spring to fall? Like, before going back to the sale, for instance?

Oh, and I'll look for that stocker publication.. I'm trying to learn everything I can, and that sounds like a good way to get good info.. Thanks!

mgman:

I'd love to find someone local to buy calves from, but I've wondered exactly how I'd know how much calf I'm getting for the money? In other words, I'm not sure I could visually distinguish the difference between a 500lb steer and a 600lb steer at this point, so I worry about getting suckered.. Any and all tips are appreciated!

SD:

Well, I'm looking for something to pack on the pounds, so maybe Herefords aren't the way to go.. In reading the sale results from the yard where I'd be selling, they list a lot of "Blk/BlkWht Face" steers.. Specific breed is omitted, but I'm guessing they're all over the board... I think the white face is a dominant gene in Herefords, so maybe they're mostly Herefords crossed with various bulls.. Honestly, though, I have no clue... What can I say? I'm a greenhorn! :lol:

Thanks you guys, and keep any and all suggestions coming!

 

[BudE]

I think you need to look at your Daily Gain when you talk about buying in the spring and selling in the fall. Say you buy 4/1 and sell 11/1, that equals 214 days. At 3 lbs/day rate of gain that equals 642 pounds. I'm not sure what your ADG for grass is in your area but 3 lbs/day is on the high side here. Add that to your 500 lb calf and you have 1142 lbs. That weight will be finished for some steers but not all. Also, this assumes your grass is ready 4/1 and holds out till 11/1.

 

[dun]

What you might want to do is use just one tank and rig up a siphon with a plain old garden hose, just screen the intake end to keep the critters out. Or you can set up one permanent water point and just fence it so that they can access it from all of the paddocks. If you use temp hot wire for your individual divisions, you can use it at the place that you can keep an eye on the calves and kill two birds with one stone. Keep an eye on them and introduce them to hot wire. Once they get lit up a time or 2 if their stupid, you shouldn't have any problems with them.

dun

 

[mgman]

Most reputable folks will gladly weigh the calves they're selling from the farm if you ask them to. I can't imagine that most people would be bothered by that...especially since it not only ensures that you only pay for what you're actually getting (weight wise), it also ensures that they're not getting short changed!
Plus you have the added advantage of seeing the cows and possibly the bull that produced the calves your buying.

 

[dun]

If you got to this link you can subscribe to the e-mail Stocker Trends Weekly

http://www.beef-mag.com/

dun

 

[Susie David]

Blk/Blk Wht Face....nice way of refering to a baldie. Good growth always sell well.

 

[cmjust0]

BudE:

I was actually figuring on buying 400-or-so lb'ers in mid march, and selling in mid october/early november.. That's basically the start of grass growing to hard frost, which is about 210 or so days.. What I had in mind as far as gain was in the 2lbs/day range, but I can't say there's anything scientific behind that. I may very well get more than that, but I won't know until I try.. In any case, using that math, I was figuring they'd go back at about 850 lbs or so..

Whether or not that's finished isn't something I had even considered... All I know is that I have about five years of archived sale reports from the yard where I'll be selling, and the general top out weight on feeder steers is around 850lbs.. I've seen reports which include a few around and over 1000, but not many.. The prices seem to remain in line with the "more lbs = less $/lb" curve -- even those upward of 1000lbs -- with no distinction as to whether the cattle are considered to be finished or not.. I was working under the impression that maybe 800-850 (+/-) was a magic number for some reason, and that's why you rarely saw any over that number.. In other words, the reports made it appear as though nobody kept steers past about 850lbs.. I thought maybe that's when they stopped making big gains, but again, I had no clue..

All my 'impressions,' 'figuring on,' and 'thinking' are very, very similar to assumptions.. We all know about assumptions.. :lol:

dun:

Good ideas on the watering system.. I like the idea of a permanent watering point accessable from all divisions, but I'll have to put my thinking cap on to figure out just where that point should be.. And, as far as 'introducing' the cattle to the hot wire, I've heard that wiring an aluminum pie pan to one of the hot wires helps do the trick.. Apparently, they will inevitably sniff the pan to see what it is and ZAPPO.. They stay away from the fences after that.. Anything you've ever heard of?

mgman:

Hadn't really thought of the other guy getting screwed, but I guess it truly is a 'mutually assured destruction' type situation.. They've got just as much interest in the actual weight as I do.. In any case, that would be an excellent argument if the seller balks at weighing the calves.. "Let's weigh'em.. I wouldn't want to underpay you..." If he agrees, great.. If he assures me that he won't be underpaid, I'll run as far and fast as possible... :lol: It's genius.. :lol:


[edited to delete something about figuring out what a black baldy was, cause I didn't see the post above... :lol:]

 

[dun]

dun:

I don't know enough about pasture quality to know whether or not fertilizing is necessary, but I hadn't planned on it.. I think it's healthy, because by june this past summer, the fescue was so thick that it choked out even the few thistles that got an early start. It got way over the hood of my old 8N before I was able to get a brush mower... There's probably more to quality than meets the eye, though, so maybe I'll get it done anyway..

Want to harp on the subject, but you shouldn;t confuse quality with quantity. With fescue it's the leave that's important. If you do some lookiing around these boards you'll find tons of information on fescue and endophyte. One june starts to give way to july you'll start to see a decrease in gain and condition unless you dilute the evil endophyte. It's commonly called "summer slump".

dun

 

[cmjust0]

SD: I was probably muddling through, trying to figure out what the hell a black baldy was while you were busy telling me outright.. :lol: I think I got it now, though. :lol: They're plentiful around here and they do seem to sell very well.. Since that's probably what I'll end up with, I'm glad to hear an endorsement!

dun:

I'll look around for the fescue/endophyte threads, as I'm not sure what you mean by "diluting" it.. I'll try to find out on my own to save you the trouble...

I have read up a little bit on fescue toxicosis, but I think the common name around here may be different.. Can't remember it right off hand, but I can see why it would be called summer slump.. Hell, maybe that was it.. I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday..

Anyway, I DO remember that, right after I read about toxicosis and its symptoms, I drove past a farm and saw the better part of a herd standing neck deep in a creek.. Looked at them a bit differently that time, for sure.. Always just thought they were hot before..

I'll do my homework, and I appreciate the heads up.

 

[Texas PaPaw]

CM

Sounds like you have done a lot of good homework. Lots of good advice in this forum.

If you want more information, I would suggest the following:

Stockman Grassfarmer Magazine http://www.Stockmangrassfarmer.net they will send you a free sample copy on request. Also they have numerous books and audio tapes.

The ones I would specifically recommend for your situation are:

"Knowledge Rich Ranching" by Allan Nation-this is about the business side of the cattle business. ie finance, economics, cost cutting, the cattle cycle, management, production, management intensive grazing,.

"Thoughts and Advice from an Old Cattleman" written by Dr Gordon Hazard-this book is primarily about the stocker cattle business. however, there are sections on cow-calf and other issues applicable to all cattle operations.

"Management Intensive Grazing" by Jim Gerrish-This is a well written, easily understood book on MIG with excellent sections on fencing, and water distribution.

All of these books (and several others)can be ordered from the Stockman Grassfarmer (http://www.StockmanGrassfarmer.net.)

Regarding purchasing in the spring and selling in the fall:
Another option is the following:
1 sell in july & august,
2. apply 50# N fertilizer late August and let fescue stockpile for winter grazing
3. purchase cattle in October/November (usual low market)
4. strip-graze (as a rationing tool) stockpiled fescue (with protein supplement) thru winter.
5. by spring you will have thin hungry calves that will have great compensatory gain.
6. sell in summer (usually higher market than fall)as grass fades away.
7. rinse, vacation, and repeat

This above is a brief summary of Doc Hazards highly successfull program. The average daily gains are not high, but cost of gain (very important) is extremely low.

Doc"s book also has chapters on what kind of cattle to buy, how to market, health issues, etc. I can't say enough good things about all the books I have previously mentioned.

Regarding the type of cattle to buy: Instead of, or in combination with steers, consider buying (in Oct/Nov) 1-4 month bred, thin, short-solid mouth cows and selling them as heavy springers or pairs the following summer. In my area, these cows can be bought in the fall for little more than packer cow price. The last 2 years these cows have been sold the following summer for $200 to $300/hd increase. Also I have less health problems with these cows than fresh weaned calves.

I hope you find this rambling helpful.

Good luck and keep us posted.


Brock

 

[Beef11]

Compensatory Gain
Cost of gain being more important than ADG being high.


I better straighten this logic out.

I'll use a northern Cow calf operation as an example

If you have an operation that will hold 500 cows for 9 months and you feed 3 months. the first thing you do to maximize profits is go and buy 300 more cows. Now you have 800 cows and you feed for 6 months.

Why

1. If you aren't feeding November-May you're lazy.
2. lazy ranchers don't make money
3. More cows=more money
4. You now have more cows than the neighbor
5. More cows more prestige
6. It doesn't matter cause you raise your own hay
7. You maximize the principle of leverage
8. you can retain 800 calves instead of 500
9. Get to by more angus bulls with lied about BWs
10. Just as well let them eat every blade of grass on the range
11. its been so rainy, probably won't drought for another 20 years.

 

[cmjust0]

Texas PaPaw:

Thanks for all the advice -- especially the books. The only cattle-specific book in my arsenal right now is "Storey's Guide to Raising Beef Cattle," and it's goal is to lightly cover as many bases as possible.. It does pretty well with that, I guess, but individual books covering individual subtopics in depth will no doubt give me a lot better info.. And thanks for the link to the grassfarmer mag.. That's kinda how I'm looking at this whole thing - as a grassfarmer.. I figure I'm just selling grass as a value added product in the form of beef..

Beef11:

I'm looking to stay away from trying to be a cow-calf operation for at *least* the first year anyway, and just deal with steers for a while... Could be wrong, but I figure the tougher the animal the better, when they basically amount to guinea pigs to a greenhand like me.. :lol: The first year is really going to be a trial for me, and that's also why I'd just as soon they were someone else's responsibility by the time it gets real cold.. I may get real confident, change my mind in late summer, buy some hay and corn and keep them till spring.. Somehow, though, I doubt it.. :lol:

 

[dun]

Check your pm

 

[cmjust0]

I'm trying to figure out exactly how to do that..

Every forum's different, so I'm on a bit of a learning curve.. :lol:

 

[cmjust0]

Nevermind, I got it.. If that giant inbox tab had been a snake.. LOOKOUT! :lol:

And thanks for the info.. I have an old tractor, a two bottom plow and a set of discs, so I may actually be in not-so-bad shape to prepare a few seedbeds for clover etc to dilute the fescue...

I'm starting to wish I'd bought the herd seeder I saw last week at an auction, though.. Went cheap, too....

 

[dun]

To prepare the fescue for seeding clover, graze it or cut it close and in January broadcast clover at a right of around 4-6 pounds per acre. The deal is that the grass has to be low enough at the seeding time to let the seed reach the ground, and short enough in the spring so that the seedlings can get a fighting chance.

dun