Needing input on these bulls
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Larry Sansom
Well-known member
I know the owners of both of the bulls. These bulls are typical of the breeding they use. Rather high EPD on milk - probably too high to use for any low input program, the ww and yw are also high for the average producer, again the owners are very willing to feed the cattle all they need to use that growth. Remember the growth from the high ww and yw comes from FEED. Do not keep heifers from them since the very low and even negative $EN!!! Popular pedigree on both - but use only if you are Terminal breeding.
PM me if you want more info on the breeders- Also I have semen and bulls available from a 6 Star Tenderness Genestar DNA test with a +30 $EN and maternal genetics that will make wonderful cows. If you want big steers - do not call me. If you make a mistake and use daughters from these 2 bulls you asked about--- Remember in cattle you get to sell your mistakes by the pound.
PM me if you want more info on the breeders- Also I have semen and bulls available from a 6 Star Tenderness Genestar DNA test with a +30 $EN and maternal genetics that will make wonderful cows. If you want big steers - do not call me. If you make a mistake and use daughters from these 2 bulls you asked about--- Remember in cattle you get to sell your mistakes by the pound.
Larry,
do you consider yourself to be on the extreme end of things? are the bulls you produce only designed for making replacement heifers? if so, what are commercial producers supposed to do with the other 50% of their yearly calf crop?
and why do you now have have any ultrasound data on your animals? i understand that you wouldnt care about carcass quality if you only care about the phenotype of the females, but is there a reason you dont do it? at some point these cows will make beef for people to eat.
i really am asking so i can get an idea where you people are coming from. i imagine you align yourself with the Keeney and Shoshone camps?
do you consider yourself to be on the extreme end of things? are the bulls you produce only designed for making replacement heifers? if so, what are commercial producers supposed to do with the other 50% of their yearly calf crop?
and why do you now have have any ultrasound data on your animals? i understand that you wouldnt care about carcass quality if you only care about the phenotype of the females, but is there a reason you dont do it? at some point these cows will make beef for people to eat.
i really am asking so i can get an idea where you people are coming from. i imagine you align yourself with the Keeney and Shoshone camps?
OP
OP
tom4018
Dumb Old Farmer
I spoke with a gentleman at the stockyards the had one of the Keeney low input bulls. He was bragging about his weaning weights, less that 600 at 7 months. I fail to get the part were they are making more money with these bulls. We are getting better weaning weights at 6 months with an unknown bull. Maybe I have a low input bull and don't know it.
My point is that it seems that the low input = low output.
We don't push our cattle with grain. Our product is sold by the pound so to me it seems every pound you give up is money.
Am I missing something?
My point is that it seems that the low input = low output.
We don't push our cattle with grain. Our product is sold by the pound so to me it seems every pound you give up is money.
Am I missing something?
Larry Sansom
Well-known member
Feed cost is the largest cost of the cow calf producer. To maximize the profit you need to control cost. Just getting the largest calf to sell is only looking at half of the equation - Gross Sales less Expenses = Profit. The extra growth comes with a price - you must feed or provide the extra nutritional needs to perform at that rate. Most high promoted cattle are produced in an artificial, very pampered environment - not the real world. The cattle to make the maximum profit is a forage efficient, smaller frame size cow. To then breed her to a large - heavy muscled bull - even cross breed to a Charolais on an Angus cow (maximum heterosis) will produce the best of both worlds. You MUST sell every calf- heifer and steers- on that cross. Once you keep a heifer back from Terminal breeding - you start to loose the effiecency of your cow herd.
The "other half" - steers from the efficient cow breeding for replacement heifers just happens to be a very efficient forage finished steer for the grass finishers. Grass Finishers know they must stay with the forage efficient type cattle- bulls and cows- to make it work. {Feeding corn covers up a lot of breeding mistakes and short comings in cattle.} Then you get the maximum profit of the high demand grass finished steer, a super heifer to make into a super cow, and if you still want to play the commodity game- you can then breed those cows to a terminal bull for feedlot cattle.
Remember that cows are Ruminants- and created to perform on forages to provide protein for human consumption. It was only in the last 50 years we have decided to try and improve on the Creators perfect design to start feeding corn and inject syn. hormones, feed low level antibiotics to try to improve on the program. Then we wonder why our profit is bad, plus our health is bad from eatting those animals. When you go all natural - finishing on forages - and your health plus profit increase - what is to not understand?
Larry Leonhardt - Shoshone Ranch has forgotten more than all the guru, ratchet typers on this board have ever known combined. Thanks for the compliment to be put in the same sentence with him. Mike Keeney is in the same area - but still quite conventional in most of his feeding. He just knows how to make a profit. Same for the Pharo - Wylie - Lents .....etc
The "other half" - steers from the efficient cow breeding for replacement heifers just happens to be a very efficient forage finished steer for the grass finishers. Grass Finishers know they must stay with the forage efficient type cattle- bulls and cows- to make it work. {Feeding corn covers up a lot of breeding mistakes and short comings in cattle.} Then you get the maximum profit of the high demand grass finished steer, a super heifer to make into a super cow, and if you still want to play the commodity game- you can then breed those cows to a terminal bull for feedlot cattle.
Remember that cows are Ruminants- and created to perform on forages to provide protein for human consumption. It was only in the last 50 years we have decided to try and improve on the Creators perfect design to start feeding corn and inject syn. hormones, feed low level antibiotics to try to improve on the program. Then we wonder why our profit is bad, plus our health is bad from eatting those animals. When you go all natural - finishing on forages - and your health plus profit increase - what is to not understand?
Larry Leonhardt - Shoshone Ranch has forgotten more than all the guru, ratchet typers on this board have ever known combined. Thanks for the compliment to be put in the same sentence with him. Mike Keeney is in the same area - but still quite conventional in most of his feeding. He just knows how to make a profit. Same for the Pharo - Wylie - Lents .....etc
preston39
Well-known member
===tom4018":wtvnznev said:
Tom...,
What do you feed to get the greater 6 months weight? You mentioned ...pushing with grain...just wondered if you feed at all or if it is with just grass.
tom4018":19lq87bz said:
You're not missing anything. Simply put, every pound of beef costs something to produce and every pound sells for something. If you grow that pound for less than you sell it, you'll be profitable.
OP
OP
tom4018
Dumb Old Farmer
preston39":tf7v3f6o said:
All the pastures have a good clover mix as do the hay fields.
We feed very little grain and what we do is a large percentage soyhulls. They get free choice hay. Our current bull's calves have average 560 lbs. and 186 days old when weaned.
The guy that I talked to that had the Keeney bull averaged 580 for 7-8 month old calves he said. We really tack our costs and kow what each calve cost to raise.
Larry:
I didnt realize that you produce cattle for non-feedlot performance. this clears up a lot for me. if your customers know that they wont do well in a feedlot and there is some forage-finishing program for their calves, it makes pretty good sense. thanks for responding.
What do you tell your customers that are making feeder calves for feedlots?
I didnt realize that you produce cattle for non-feedlot performance. this clears up a lot for me. if your customers know that they wont do well in a feedlot and there is some forage-finishing program for their calves, it makes pretty good sense. thanks for responding.
What do you tell your customers that are making feeder calves for feedlots?
Larry Sansom
Well-known member
I tell them exactly what I have told you above - These cattle will make you profitable heifers and the steers will sell well also - even to the feedlot guys.
Why??? Because you get more money per pound of calf at lower weight, you can run 10 to 20 percent more cattle of my type on the same acres, (cows eat 2.5% body weight whether they are 1200 or 1500 lbs) and your net profit PER ACRE will be higher. Do corn producers figure $ per stalk - NO they figure $/acre. When you can run more head on the same size farm, the calves sell for more $/lb - you will gross more money on the same farm. Sure you can not sit around the feed mill while they are mixing your feed and waiting for you to write a check and brag about your 700+ lb weaning weight - But Your Banker will love you.
The grass finishers are an option few will take- even though they can make massive profit - These cattle will do well in a feed lot. Some feedlots must learn to sell cattle when they are ready - rather than waiting for the whole pen to weigh 1300+ lbs. That is THEIR problem - mine is to maximize the profit on MY farm.
The option is still there to breed these heifers to a continental breed to maximize growth and still run the same larger number of cows on the same farm. You can not get frame 5 cows breeding to 7+ frame bulls and keeping heifers. Many breed to forage efficient bulls to their heifers and best cows to multiply the herd, and breed the rest to a growth - high input bull- and sell all those calves. What they do and how they manage is their business - I tell them how to get maximum profit. Many people just can not get over the Bigger is better thinking - until they figure their cost and net profit. Must be why most of my bulls go to repeat buyers - and I sell out before any reach 18 months old.
Why??? Because you get more money per pound of calf at lower weight, you can run 10 to 20 percent more cattle of my type on the same acres, (cows eat 2.5% body weight whether they are 1200 or 1500 lbs) and your net profit PER ACRE will be higher. Do corn producers figure $ per stalk - NO they figure $/acre. When you can run more head on the same size farm, the calves sell for more $/lb - you will gross more money on the same farm. Sure you can not sit around the feed mill while they are mixing your feed and waiting for you to write a check and brag about your 700+ lb weaning weight - But Your Banker will love you.
The grass finishers are an option few will take- even though they can make massive profit - These cattle will do well in a feed lot. Some feedlots must learn to sell cattle when they are ready - rather than waiting for the whole pen to weigh 1300+ lbs. That is THEIR problem - mine is to maximize the profit on MY farm.
The option is still there to breed these heifers to a continental breed to maximize growth and still run the same larger number of cows on the same farm. You can not get frame 5 cows breeding to 7+ frame bulls and keeping heifers. Many breed to forage efficient bulls to their heifers and best cows to multiply the herd, and breed the rest to a growth - high input bull- and sell all those calves. What they do and how they manage is their business - I tell them how to get maximum profit. Many people just can not get over the Bigger is better thinking - until they figure their cost and net profit. Must be why most of my bulls go to repeat buyers - and I sell out before any reach 18 months old.
preston39
Well-known member
tom4018 said:
