need advice please

[jawsmom]

Hi there - I'm new on here, first post. Background first. My son showed cattle and had them as his
SAE through ag in high school. He's now in second year of college and of course mom is helping
while he's gone. We had the bright idea that we'd breed one of the heifers - read up and thought
okay we can do this. Well, heifer calved, beautiful little bull calf was growing like a weed all
was good till last week. Evidently mom's immunity is wearing off ( we had a 3-month vacc.
in mind.) because first he scoured, vet said bring samples, it was ecoli. Got the meds done
with that, no change - new sample shows clostridium. Way bad news. Vet gave Baytril. And
we've been using the probios. And mom had her vaccs as supposed to.
Calf is doing okay right now except for the diarrhea - managed to nurse and stay hydrated so
far. Gets up and around, pee not concentrated, no skin tenting, eyes good, nurses like a champ. We do
have electrolytes on hand, vet said observe and use only if indicated.
While I trust my vet, all the info I find on Baytril indicates for respiratory illness. Also, if it's
injected how can it get to the gut?? Am I being overly critical? We are really excited about this baby
and want to pull him through. Illness from beginning to now about 1 week total. He's a fighter that's for sure. Advice would be greatly appreciated. Lurked on here for a long long time and there are some great folks. Please don't bash us for being rookies. We started slow on purpose with one calf so we can not
be over our heads. Son really wants to raise a small herd and so we're trying to help achieve this.

 

[dun]

The side affect of some drugs will help with scours even though they are used for something else. He isn;t treating the scours perse' he's tryihng the infection.
Here's the bad news, calves that get e coli problems in a particualr pasture means that it's in the soil and it takes eyars to get rid of it (if ever) Wherever this little guy has been shoudln;t have young calves in it again, I would say for roughly 6-7 years. We just went through the e coli problem with all of the calves in one pasture, calves in the other pastures never had a problem.

 

[jawsmom]

I rather thought that might be the case. We are preparing to fence off a new pasture that
hopefully we can use for babies if we have more. Hasn't had any livestock on it for 40
years. Is it possible to prevent contamination of the new pasture? Or will our cows
contaminate it as soon as they're moved?
And thank you for your post. Just kind of making sure we're giving/doing the right thing.

 

[dun]

I rather thought that might be the case. We are preparing to fence off a new pasture that
hopefully we can use for babies if we have more. Hasn't had any livestock on it for 40
years. Is it possible to prevent contamination of the new pasture? Or will our cows
contaminate it as soon as they're moved?
And thank you for your post. Just kind of making sure we're giving/doing the right thing.

Cows are alwasy dumping the stuff. It seems like it's the odd time that something will get it going in a new pasture. When that happens the calves are contaminating the pasture with the new fresh healthy(really sick making) stuff. That's what causes the sever outbreaks over and over.

 

[agmantoo]

Any chance you are watering the cattle from a stream? I was having some problems with young calves only when the herd was grazing on a particular part of the farm. The neighbor on that side was a dairy farmer. He has a spring that flows water from his place onto mine. Following a major rain I went to check on an erosion control project and I observe the spring water had a froth. Follow up located the source to be his lagoon. From years past, there had been a drain valve that had now failed and lagoon waste and brewers wet grain waste was entering into the spring water. This was being consumed by the calves creating health problems. Weird things can happen. Just check all source to eliminate unexpected causes.

 

[jawsmom]

We use troughs for water, the rubber ones, cleaned and changed regularly. And he wasn't
on feed yet, so don't have the rumen/overload issue. I know these bacteria occur in the
environment, so an occasional problem may occur. I'm more than willing to do what it
takes to get him well if it's possible but knowing for sure what's right is my issue. I'm
kind of Type A that way. lol. It did occur to me that maybe it was hay - we are still
haying some till the grass comes on really good, and what we have left was cut kind of
mature. It has been barn stored, and we did have some birds during bad weather but
discarded exposed bales because we didn't want the coccidiosis problem. I do appreciate
all the suggestions because someone here may point out something that I haven't considered.
I'm placing my trust in the vet that he's going to guide us well. All we've ever had to do is
vaccinations and the OB palpation so this is new for us. We do put out minerals but he has
shown little interest and rather thought that wouldn't be a cause anyway since they're
beneficial. He's only 8 weeks old and other than a little hay and grazing he pretty much is
only on mama. Water of course. I'm sure she probably had a dirty udder when he was born
because we were knee deep in mud at the time, but he's been A-ok since birth till now. Was
really looking like he'd make a good steer too. Hope he still will.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"Generally" calves don't actually die from the ecoli, they get secondary infections (respiratory), so the Baytril was more for preventative. Keep giving the probias. As long as he does not get dehydrated, he should be fine.
Since you know you have a potential problem in the future, I would give the cow a scour vaccine shot (actually it will take two because it needs a booster first year) prior to calving next year.
BTW :welcome: from New York.
Ecoli is everywhere, but exposure during a stress time can trigger it. Maybe a bad weather pattern could have gotten the calve's immunites low. Never know. But it sounds like (for a newbie) you are doing a great job - you seem to have common sense.

 

[jawsmom]

Well i'm working on it. I've learned more than I ever thought I wanted to - but you know I
have decided I love cattle! Now it wont' be a living it'll be a hobby but I'm kind of having
a blast. I know why my son got hooked. Even with the calving watch, the illness, the
work mucking out manure and fencing and all the other be nice that goes with it- it's good honest
work and our cows are really cool. You can mess with them if you need to but if you don't they'll pretty much leave you alone. Hard to describe, but I'm sure a lot of you can identify.
So do you think that if we manage to keep him hydrated and on probios, and with the meds he's
already had, the clostridium will clear on up?

 

[jawsmom]

An update - looks like we're turning a corner. had small soft piles today instead of watery messes and he's running
again. May not ever trust us again, but that's the way it goes. I don't want anyone to think that because I said
this will be hobby that we don't take it seriously. We want to raise the best cattle we can and do the best we
can. It'd be nice to have one for the freezer and maybe a couple to sell to help offset costs. I really enjoy the
hunt for that perfect bull to breed to and the challenges the cattle have presented. I just know that we will
never have the kind of herds many of you have on here! I can dream though. Wish I'd grown up around them.

 

[dun]

May not ever trust us again, but that's the way it goes.

The 2 we had to treat the heaviest for the e coli are the same way. Just when they started settling down a bit we caught them again and emptyied their coin purse.

 

[djinwa]

I wouldn’t leap to big conclusions on future plans based on a few lab tests. The presence of an organism in the stool does not mean it is the cause of disease. And sometimes there are multiple organisms involved. Diagnosis can be difficult – have to combine lab tests with symptoms, age of calf, etc.

The list of possibilities are E. coli, Salmonella, viruses like corona, rota, protozoa like crypotsporidia. Based on symptoms and age, I’d lean more to your calf having a virus, or cryposporidia, or the milder E. coli. The E. coli for which cows are vaccinated will affect calves less than 5 days of age with severe diarrhea. Clostridium illness is often quickly fatal.

Sometimes I think we worry more about our animals than ourselves. I wouldn't see a doctor for my diarrhea unless it was severe and prolonged. You can eat something bad, or various bugs get passed around, and most of the time things work out okay. If I submitted my stool today, they'd find some pathogen in it. We once treated our 3 year old son for Giardia based on a stool sample and turned him yellow. He had vague bowel symptoms we eventually discovered were caused by him simply holding back - he didn't like to poop.

You might want to read the following reference:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... /22108.htm

The interpretation of fecal microbiology can be difficult because of mixed infections and because enteropathogens are commonly present in the feces of healthy calves.

 

[jawsmom]

Excellent point. I'm not one to rush to drs. myself and can usually figure it out. I think once
we have more experience under our belt we will be more comfortable with observation and
supportive measures and be better equipped to know when it's really time to call the vet.
At this point in our "education" we're kind of like better safe than sorry. I'm glad I finally
registered here to take full advantage of all the wisdom gathered in one place. I just
feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

 

[dun]

Excellent point. I'm not one to rush to drs. myself and can usually figure it out. I think once
we have more experience under our belt we will be more comfortable with observation and
supportive measures and be better equipped to know when it's really time to call the vet.
At this point in our "education" we're kind of like better safe than sorry. I'm glad I finally
registered here to take full advantage of all the wisdom gathered in one place. I just
feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

The biggest problem is dehydration. The calf that got the sickest never really looked all that dehydrated but he took 4 liters IV on 4 different days. Even with the 4 liters at a time he didn;t start to pee.

 

[upfrombottom]

I just feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

You are quite welcome to stick around as long as you don't start posting recipes containing tuna or hamburger-helper.

 

[jawsmom]

Dun, that was the thing that we watched the closest. I just knew we were going to either have
to tube or IV but he kept peeing and it wasn't concentrated and didn't show any of the indications
of dehydration that we knew to look for. He was a little slower and less active than normal but
overall he held condition well. I was amazed, especially given the amount going out of him. Now,
it's possible that we should have done it anyway but I was trying to follow vet instructions and not
panic. That was hard! The barn looks like a vet clinic with bags and syringes and tubes and
bottles ready for action. He's running around again acting like himself thank goodness. That
calf was not going to die on my watch if I could help it.
And upfrombottom, I can promise no tuna or hamburger helper. lol. I do have a really good
one for sweet and sour chicken wings......

 

[3waycross]

Excellent point. I'm not one to rush to drs. myself and can usually figure it out. I think once
we have more experience under our belt we will be more comfortable with observation and
supportive measures and be better equipped to know when it's really time to call the vet.
At this point in our "education" we're kind of like better safe than sorry. I'm glad I finally
registered here to take full advantage of all the wisdom gathered in one place. I just
feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

You have offered a couple of things already. A good attitude and a willingness to learn. That'll take you a long way around here. Welcome to CT :welcome:

 

[angus9259]

I just feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

You are quite welcome to stick around as long as you don't start posting recipes containing tuna or hamburger-helper.

What the heck's wrong with tuna or hamburger helper??!? Those things are genius :banana:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Excellent point. I'm not one to rush to drs. myself and can usually figure it out. I think once
we have more experience under our belt we will be more comfortable with observation and
supportive measures and be better equipped to know when it's really time to call the vet.
At this point in our "education" we're kind of like better safe than sorry. I'm glad I finally
registered here to take full advantage of all the wisdom gathered in one place. I just
feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

You have offered a couple of things already. A good attitude and a willingness to learn. That'll take you a long way around here. Welcome to CT :welcome:

Agreed!!! a newbie with common sense - love it!!!

 

[Workinonit Farm]

feel bad I won't have much to offer!!

You have offered a couple of things already. A good attitude and a willingness to learn. That'll take you a long way around here. Welcome to CT :welcome:

Agreed!!! a newbie with common sense - love it!!!

:nod: :nod: Not all that common anymore these days. :welcome:

Katherine

 

[jawsmom]

Aw, you all are making me feel all warm and fuzzy. Seriously, thank you all for the welcome. Now just
hope I don't pester you to death. I feel like I can come here and not get made fun of for not
being an expert. Calf is much better by the way, was running again and fighting the halter.
Have a great evening!