Natural, organic, or whatever and antibiotics

[Dusty Britches]

Ok so I just read this:

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/farnam_com ... tID=116232

and it seems we are having trouble defining natural, grass fed, and organic.

All of them seem to prohibit anitbiotics. Or do they? I also, ironically just got off the phone with a feller who is trying to convince me to join the grass fed alliance. He said the calves are allowed only trace amounts of antibiotics.

Ok. So how long after administering antibiotics before it is reduced to trace?

AND - If I give a cow an anitbiotic shot within 30 days of calving for ecoli bacteria prevention, does that count against the calf?

I'm under the impression that these branded markets haven't thought things through. Heck even the guy I talked to said the retailer who started the alliance did so for 2 years before inviting a calf producer to table for discussions.

 

[Sir Loin]

Let's call a spade a spade.
I don't think there is enough of a demand for "All-Natural ". Yes there are some leftover 60s people out there making a lot of noise about "All-Natural " but it's certainly not a large enough customer base to pursue or someone would have done it already.

And the fact is, there is enough "all natural" beef out there. All you have to do is cut supply between the farmer and the feed lot and you will have ' all natural" "grass fed" beef.
There are plenty of cattle people who are willing to sell "all natural" directly to the public.
So supply is not the problem demand is.

Now I want you supporters of "all natural" to define "all natural" for me.
Exactly what do you want and don't want in a side of beef ?

 

[Frankie]

Let's call a spade a spade.
I don't think there is enough of a demand for "All-Natural ". Yes there are some leftover 60s people out there making a lot of noise about "All-Natural " but it's certainly not a large enough customer base to pursue or someone would have done it already.

And the fact is, there is enough "all natural" beef out there. All you have to do is cut supply between the farmer and the feed lot and you will have ' all natural" "grass fed" beef.
There are plenty of cattle people who are willing to sell "all natural" directly to the public.
So supply is not the problem demand is.

Now I want you supporters of "all natural" to define "all natural" for me.
Exactly what do you want and don't want in a side of beef ?

There are several "natural" beef product lines, even a CAB Natural line. It's still a small market, but growing fast.

This is one of the oldest and probably biggest:

http://www.colemannatural.com/

 

[Sir Loin]

Frankie,

A Word from our Chairman

In 1875 my great-grandfather settled in Colorado and started Coleman Ranches. Today we still raise cattle the old fashioned way - the way nature intended. Without the use of antibiotics or added hormones, and always 100% vegetarian fed. Through five generations we've continued these natural practices. From my family to yours, that's the Coleman promise.

Without the use of antibiotics or added hormones, and always 100% vegetarian fed.

By this definition we have 250 steers, except for about 10 of them who were given antibiotics, in the lot right now that are "all natural".
Q. Is pour on wormer an antibiotic?
So there's the proof of supply, now where is the demand?

 

[Bez>]

I love the "vegetarian fed" line.

Hmmm ... do others feed their cattle steaks and pork chops?

Bez>

 

[MikeC]

Q. Is pour on wormer an antibiotic?

No. Pour-ons and vaccinations are accepted in natural beef.

Some will even allow an injection of antibiotics if done before a certain length of time before harvest.

The big thing is leaving out the low doses of antibiotics sometimes put in feed. CTC, etc.

 

[Sir Loin]

Re:

I love the "vegetarian fed" line.

Just like any good car salesman, "tell them what they want to hear" and talk in their terms.

No. Pour-ons and vaccinations are accepted in natural beef.

OK then, we have "all natural" beef.
Now where are all those buyers?

 

[Herefordcross]

Sir Loin
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re:
Quote:
I love the "vegetarian fed" line.

Just like any good car salesman, "tell them what they want to hear" and talk in their terms.

Quote:
No. Pour-ons and vaccinations are accepted in natural beef.

OK then, we have "all natural" beef.
Now where are all those buyers?

If you would get out of the TN backwoods you would see all kinds of markets! (No disrespect Crowder, and the rest of the TN gang) Go close to any larger city and there is the market. Gaithersburg, MD, "Natural Beef" $15+ PER POUND. If you need a map to get there let me know.
I guess it's up to the individual how many hoops they want to hop through to make a dollar.

And by the way, you sound like good old "loose jaw" for some reason.

 

[Sir Loin]

"Natural Beef" $15+ PER POUND.

Well I'll tell you what. A bull wagon load is 47,000 pounds and I can load it several times over, so you bring your cash and I will sell them to you for $12 per pound and you can sell them any where you like.
That's 47,000 lbs X $3 per pound = $141,000 you make less trucking.
Come any time, and don't forget to bring cash. :lol:
SL

 

[backhoeboogie]

I don't think there is enough of a demand for "All-Natural ". Yes there are some leftover 60s people out there making a lot of noise about "All-Natural " but it's certainly not a large enough customer base to pursue or someone would have done it already.

There are a whole bunch of folks suffering from alergies. The numbers have been on the incline for years. Hence, it is much more than "leftover 60s people".

What people (customers) are seeking the most is beef that has had no growth hormones. They are not so concerned with grass fed or antibiotics.

You'd probably be totally surprised by the numbers of hobby farmers raising their own steers just because of alergies. They get better quality beef than they can buy at the grocery stores and spend less nickels to get it. Once they've done it, and have no allergic reactions, they will do it from now on because they like to eat beef.

 

[Frankie]

Frankie,

A Word from our Chairman

In 1875 my great-grandfather settled in Colorado and started Coleman Ranches. Today we still raise cattle the old fashioned way - the way nature intended. Without the use of antibiotics or added hormones, and always 100% vegetarian fed. Through five generations we've continued these natural practices. From my family to yours, that's the Coleman promise.

Without the use of antibiotics or added hormones, and always 100% vegetarian fed.

By this definition we have 250 steers, except for about 10 of them who were given antibiotics, in the lot right now that are "all natural".
Q. Is pour on wormer an antibiotic?
So there's the proof of supply, now where is the demand?

The demand is there. But you have to go to the market; it's not likely to come to you. Do a Google search for natural beef. There may be a program wanting your calves.

 

[dun]

Meyers has a natural beef program but I think it may be reserved for Red Angus influenced calves.

 

[Frankie]

Sir Loin
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re:
Quote:
I love the "vegetarian fed" line.

Just like any good car salesman, "tell them what they want to hear" and talk in their terms.

Quote:
No. Pour-ons and vaccinations are accepted in natural beef.

OK then, we have "all natural" beef.
Now where are all those buyers?

If you would get out of the TN backwoods you would see all kinds of markets! (No disrespect Crowder, and the rest of the TN gang) Go close to any larger city and there is the market. Gaithersburg, MD, "Natural Beef" $15+ PER POUND. If you need a map to get there let me know.
I guess it's up to the individual how many hoops they want to hop through to make a dollar.

And by the way, you sound like good old "loose jaw" for some reason.

You don't even have to go to a large city. I was in the Market Street supermarket at Wichita Falls, TX, today. It's full of "natural" and "organic" and "Eco" lines of food. I went there to buy some CAB, but they don't carry regular CAB anymore. They carry the CAB Natural line of beef @ $14.99 per pound for ribeyes.

 

[milkmaid]

Ok. So how long after administering antibiotics before it is reduced to trace?

I'm not sure what the "natural" circles call "trace" amounts, but I do know that after the withdrawal time on an antibiotic, residues will not be detected by standard antibiotic tests. So any residual amounts in the kidneys, liver, etc, are very minimal - I'd consider it "trace" amounts.

AND - If I give a cow an anitbiotic shot within 30 days of calving for ecoli bacteria prevention, does that count against the calf?

Just FWIW, randomly giving antibiotics prior to calving to "prevent" ecoli problems (cow or calf), is ineffective. There are vaccinations available to boost immunity in the cow against ecoli-caused mastitis, and vaccinations available to boost immunity in the calf against ecoli-caused scours, but as far as giving antibiotics willy-nilly, nope. Useless.

I don't know the "all natural" rules, but I do know that for beef animals under organic rules, a cow cannot be given antibiotics past the third trimester or the calf can no longer be sold for "organic" meat.

JMO, but the folks that come up with the organic rules and the other stuff need their heads examined. Under organic rules, Lidocaine - a local anesthetic - has a 7 day milk withdrawal. :roll: I read through some of the official organic drug rules last year, and was really surprised what people came up with that needed a "withdrawal time".

 

[Susie David]

Natural beef is a growing market....not just with the 60's hippies though the natural and organic movement was basically started by the hippie commune farms but with the current health conscious generation.
One thing to say about the old and new folks that want more healthfull beef.....disposalable income. We sell out every slaughter and have waiting lists for our "all natural" freezer beef and only ask $4.50 per pound for our ground beef at the Farmer's Markets....rib steaks are a mere twelve bucks a pound but then we only sell twenty or so a day and only fifity plus pounds of ground beef.
The folks that want to keep marketing their cattle at the sale barn probably have sale barn quality animals...I choose to raise a high quality animal and command the price to match .
I'm sure that there alot of growers that raise better beef than we do and I hope that they get a fair price for their animals...but marketing is critical in maintaining the health of a business.
And that's my two bits worth...asked for or not. DMc

 

[alftn]

Ok does natural/ organic allow the use of fer.? (15-15-15) or chicken crap? witch would be full of all kinds of hormones/by products. Yes I have read a lot of articals but does seem to me none of it is trully natural....

 

[TheLazyM]

All my cattle seem "natural". They chew the green stuff. They call out to each other. I saw one bleed the other day after hanging a nail in the old barn. They dont have fake hair or what ever and sure as heck was'nt cloned. These all natural folks go to the doctor when they are sick and get shots and most of them take vitiamins and all kind of designer stuff. If we dont treat our animals when sick we lose profit. Bottom line. Most fertilizers come from naturial sources but they frown on it. I think its all a ploye to fix the market. Face it if everyone raised natural beef the population will fall but the demand would be great which will raise the price. Yep there is a market and i exploit it. I run an ad that states that i have natural beef for sale. Buyers come out and select their animal and i haul it to the processing house for them. Most of the buyers are young people. I just chuckle once the coins settle in the bottom of my pocket and my diesel fires up on its way to the butcher.

 

[Sir Loin]

The demand is there. But you have to go to the market; it's not likely to come to you. Do a Google search for natural beef. There may be a program wanting your calves.

OK, I stand corrected. I now believe the demand is there!
Now the next question is, will the public be willing to pay for it.

Ultrasound update.

I talked to the big man yesterday and our ultrasound day has been changed from April 18 to the 16.
I also found this out.

It costs $10 per head to have an ultrasound done.
We will be getting a discount rate ($6 per head) because he is considering entering into a contract with the buyer/meat packer for all our feeders.

He said when she is done we will know if we have "all natural beef" as we don't use growth hormones or bulk antibiotics in their feed. And our feed is all natural.

Now here is an interesting thing he said.
They do not consider corn in it's self to be natural, but corn gluten is considered natural.
You can't feed ground corn but you can feed corn gluten.
It has something to do with how the corn brakes down and converts to protein and then into fat and/or muscle tissue (marbling).
IMO, it must be the cooking of the corn that makes the difference.
Go figure!

Now someone has already been out and checked for growth implants and our feed stuff and we are OK there. Now they are coming on the 16th to check the meat itself.
He said that when the ultrasound is complete, we will know if we have "all natural beef" and/or "certified angus beef" and/or just beef (hamburger) to sell and we will be separating them into 3 different pens.
From there he will negotiate a contract, including price. If no agreement is reached he will then shop around for another buyer.

I'll keep you posted.
SL

 

[Earl Thigpen]

I think my view on this subject is pretty well known. Natural, Grass fed, Organic and all the other two bit words don't mean squat for the rancher. This is some fad cooked up by some marketing a hole who never made a dime through honest work.

When my cattle get sick I take care of them. If that means using antibiotics then so be it. And so would every other rancher who's worth his salt. So where is this "organic" crap coming from? Has any one ever tracked down the supply line? Oh, I know. It's coming from that feller over in Tennessee (sp) that feeds chicken s___ to his cattle. Well, its organic, ain't it?

So what does the "organic" rancher do when he/she has a sick animal? Let them suffer and eventually die? Spread whatever to the rest of the herd (all two of them)?

Sorry fellers. I don't buy it.

 

[Sir Loin]

Earl,

Hey I'm in your corner, but if they are willing to pay a higher price for the very same beef they got last year when it was just called beef, who am I to argue with them.
I really don't care what they call it, as long as we get paid extra for jumping through their hoops to produce it.

SL