Mystery calves down - frozen

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

This was a first (and second) for us.

2-15 (day after huge snow storm/wind) found a calf frozen stiff, still barely alive. Was fine day before. We brought him into the house & floated him in bathtub. Too late - he died.

Last Friday evening, watched 4 calves up & going. Next AM, hubby found 1 flat out frozen (again!!). He floated him for 3 hours in bathtub til body temp came up. Tubed & kept in house. Next AM, weak, 99 temp so put heat lamp on him in house, gave 3 CC BoSe. Got him to suck a tiny bit, than tubed rest. Afternoon, he stood up for few minutes. Tubed again PM (101.8 temp yahoo). Monday, stood & sucked little than tubed rest. Noon stood for 1.5 hours, offered just a little milk replacer & he sucked it. PM, gave 2 CC more BoSe, put cow in chute, brought calf out & he sucked like a trooper. VERY weak, but butting the bag & sucking. Made a very warm cozy spot for him in barn with his mom. Put cow in chute this am & he sucked perfect. Still too weak to have mom move around at all.
NO scouring, no respiratory problems, no temp, no lameness - still. Put him on Pen (chose Pen because it is mild & just wanted something for preventative measures).

This is totally baffling to us.
First calf, we figured must have gotton stepped on or something. Now, having a 2nd calf do the same, makes us doubt that.

Logically, we think it must be White Muscle Disease. BUT, our herd is kept on triple dose SE in mineral year round, & calves get 4cc BoSe at birth. This is very puzzling.

We now call him STINKY - you can imagine what our house SMELLED LIKE!!!!

Just thought I would share. Any thoughts??

 

[ENNOT]

WHat was your reasoning for giving the 2nd calf 5 cc of BoSe? I thought it was only labeled for about 3 cc at birth?

See, we give Mu-Se, thats why I ask. We are in a very Se deficient area, but calves get 1 cc Mu-Se at birth, and then they never get it again unless they are a replacement, and we give it in the fall they are to calve. Then all cows get it during fall workup.

We also feed a mineral with Se in it.

I guess my thought is that too much Se is also bad.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Ennott - If you use MuSe, you are actually OD'ing your calves since dosage is 1cc/200# - that's one of the reasons BoSe is recommended for newborns. We ALWAYS give more SE the 2nd day if we have a slow newborn. We do give it SubQ (most all the time) for slow release. BoSe is 2.75-3.75/100# dosage. We always give 4cc at birth & more if over 100#.
This calf was 7 days old when he went down.
Still no scours, no lung problems, no fever - just weak.
Even if he wasn't sick prior to going down, can't believe he isn't scouring now! Tough little bugger (Stinky).

 

[dun]

My thoughts would be possible internal organ damage from the low core temperature, i.e. liver, kidney, whatever else is in there.......

dun

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Yeah, we're sure that we're not out of the woods yet.
Thing is, we didn't expect him to survive (like the first one), and now to have him nursing raises our hopes.
Weather has been the hardest on our calves as we've ever had. Had a few get "puny" looking & brought cow & calf into barn to "warm up".
Have had 18 calves last 4-5 weeks. Hope that's the last of the "mystery calves".

 

[L Weir]

Sorry for your loss. let us know if you figure out what the problem was.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Sorry for your loss. let us know if you figure out what the problem was.

Thanks - I just hope I don't have any more down calves to find the solution :shock:

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Update on "Stinky". He seemed weaker last night. Got up & went to sucking, but went from teat to teat like cow didn't have any milk. Did he already milk her out? or is her milk production real low from not being sucked? He looked gant. These were our questions, and we opted to tube him on the assumption he couldn't go without the nutrition. His temp was 102.5 - kept him on Pen.
This AM, even weaker, now he's scouring (from overfeeding?? - possible). Temp still 102.5 - gave Pen + Sulfa boluses. Nursed but for short time. Will get him up & see if he nurses again pretty soon.

 

[cowwrangler]

does your calf seem to get weaker with the cows milk?it is rare but i have seen where the cows milk is poisonous due to some infection of some means,just a suggestion if he does better away from her

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

No, mom's milk is fine. If not, he would have gotten stronger after last nights tubing with formula milk.
This calf was sooo frozen, his eyes were white, head twisted over his back, legs stiff, could only moan. Couldn't straighten out his neck for first 24 hours. The fact that he got up & walked & sucked his dam is totally amazing. Should have had brain damage I would think.
I think STRESS is now getting him. It was inevitable that he would start scouring and/or having respiratory problems.
And like Dun said, the potential complications of internal "shutdown" is very possible.
It's one of those things. You find a calf "almost" dead - do you let it die or do you intervene & "save" it. We can't let it die, so we do what we can. Knowing it is probably fruitless - but we try.
I'll post progress - or not.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Sorry to hear about that Jeanne. I hope this is the last you see of frozen calves.

I have had a couple get/look 'chilled' where getting them into a bed of hay in a run-in did the trick. But nothing frozen.

Katherine

 

[milkmaid]

Is he getting electrolytes? probiotics?

does your calf seem to get weaker with the cows milk?it is rare but i have seen where the cows milk is poisonous due to some infection of some means,just a suggestion if he does better away from her

This occurred to me before I read this post....

are these first calvers or older cows? I've heard about the rH factor in horses; haven't heard anything about it in cows but I assume it could appear there too. Could you try taking him off his mother's milk for 24 hours and see what happens? and just milk her and store the milk in the 'fridge in the meantime.

 

[milkmaid]

BTW, Bo-Se is 1mg/mL, Mu-Se is 5mg/mL, soooo....

1cc of MuSe is equal to 5cc's of BoSe.

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

"Stinky" is still with us. After giving him the sulfa, his diarhea is gone. He only had one stool that was "water" that I know of. Anyway, I tubed him with electrolites yesterday afternoon, he sucked mom real good PM. She is a 3 year old, raised a great heifer last year but we purchased her with heifer on side, so don't know her history from calving to 2 months of age.
Keeping him on 5cc pen am & pm. Right now, temp been runing 102 - 102.5, no respiratory, now no diarhea. He's just sooo weak. Did seem stronger after yesterday's electrolites. Probably should have given him another dose late last night.
Plan on tubing him with elect at noon & will give it again late tonight. When he sucks, he spends a good 20 minutes sucking, so she is producing, and I can squirt out milk with just pinching with two fingers.
This may be a fruitless battle, but he is such a fighter & willing to suck mom. I guess I'll hang in there as long as he does.
Got another cow in labor as we "type". Think that will be 8 in past 7 days. 22 down - 16 to go. Sure would like to keep them alive!!!

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

I think Stinky is out of the woods. Fully hydrated now, even had a little bouce in his walk this morning.
There was a fine line between letting him suck & tubing him. I know he needed a little more than he was getting from mom, (she had been unsucked for at least 3 days), but I needed him to pump mom's bag as much as he had strength to do to stimulate her production. After he got back with mom, we tubed him with milk once & tubed him with electrolites once. Mom must be back to production, because he looks full & happy :heart:

 

[KMacGinley]

POisonous Milk???? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Calves Don't need as much milk to get by at first as you think they do. He was probably nursing enough once you revived him to get by, you just didn't catch him at it. Milk bottles should be no more than a quart for newborns I think.

 

[TheBullLady]

Jeanne,

So sorry to hear about your problems with the nasty weather. Ya'll up north have really been having a horrible winter!

When I lived in Illinois we had a similar problem one year.. if I remember correctly we lost two and had a couple more that we managed to save. My vet up there suggested it was more a matter of the cow possibly taking longer to calf.. not necessarily with a problem, but the length of time involved stressing the calf out more than in "normal" weather. And of course if the cow doesn't get up right away and lick the calf off, there's the added time before they really get warm.

Best of luck to you! I don't blame you for trying.. you have to try and save them.

I sure hope your weather straightens out soon. It does surprise me that folks that live "up north" have such an early calving season, with the possibility of bad weather.

 

[milkmaid]

POisonous Milk???? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes and no.

If the cow has a certain blood type and the bull she's bred to has a different blood type, and the calf inherits the sire's blood type, the cow can produce antibodies at calving that will attempt to destroy the calf's fetal red blood cells... sometimes known as Rh disease. In such a case, the antibodies would be in the colostrum and milk, so the calf can die unless the problem is identified and separated from the cow. Usually on the first gestation there are no problems, but subsequent pregnancies (if the blood type of offspring is different than that of dam) can result in this problem. It's rare, but does occur.

It affects about 4,000 newborn children a year too -- animals aren't the only ones affected. http://www.marchofdimes.com/professionals/681_1220.asp

 

[Jeanne - Simme Valley]

Milkmaid - that would sure be a tough one to figure out!!

Stinky is doing great. I'm still chicken & I put him & mom in barn at night. Weather turning nasty again. Windy, snow & temp dropping to 0 tonight.
Haven't had any problem at calving time. These two problems were 7-10 day old calves.
Only calf we have had a problem with at birth (besides a full breech) was a big dummy calf born last Friday - cow spit him out OK. Knuckled over, 120# non-sucker. This was out of one of my traditional old red & white cows, bred to a bull we hadn't tried. Gave him 4cc BoSe at birth, gave another 3cc later when I got his weight & knew he had no instinct to suck, and gave another 2cc next day. 3rd day his "sucker" woke up! He is getting around OK now & finally sucking mom as of last night.