My Bull

[inyati13]

It has been almost a year since I put my bull on here when I first bought him. My good friends on here booed him, cussed him and outright torn him a new bung hole. He is about 2 1/2 years old. I got him last year too late to do much breeding. So I only have one calf. It is probably my least exciting calf. I am disappointed in its growth compared to the calves out of bred heifers I have bought in from some big time programs. If he excells in anything, it is his gentle nature. I know you folks warn me, but I scratch him every day. I watch him as best one can but I have never seen a threat out of him. He will walk to me in the field. As he approaches, he lowers his head to have his neck scratched. I plan to get a bull that will give my girls better calves but right now, he is the guy who does what I need done. He was a $2,000 bull so I didn't expect perfection but I do want better calves than the one I am placing my judgement on. I know I need to spend at least $3,000 or more around here if I want a really nice bull.

 

[tom4018]

It has been almost a year since I put my bull on here when I first bought him. My good friends on here booed him, cussed him and outright torn him a new bung hole. He is about 2 1/2 years old. I got him last year too late to do much breeding. So I only have one calf. It is probably my least exciting calf. I am disappointed in its growth compared to the calves out of bred heifers I have bought in from some big time programs. If he excells in anything, it is his gentle nature. I know you folks warn me, but I scratch him every day. I watch him as best one can but I have never seen a threat out of him. He will walk to me in the field. As he approaches, he lowers his head to have his neck scratched. I plan to get a bull that will give my girls better calves but right now, he is the guy who does what I need done. He was a $2,000 bull so I didn't expect perfection but I do want better calves than the one I am placing my judgement on. I know I need to spend at least $3,000 or more around here if I want a really nice bull.

I always thought a $2,00 bull was a lot of money but now days you can't find much for that. Last bull I had was real gentle, he never did anything to threaten me, but I watched him close. I gave a little less than $2,00 for him out of the Central Ky Angus sale, he was the top bull in the fall sale several years ago. I really like him, did better than my last bull and records prove he weaned more pounds than the previous bull. Spent the most I ever did on one last year. He has better epd's than the last, we try to improve a little each time and maintain a balance concentrating on what we feel we need/want. This bull has some hooves to fill and one thing he will never done is recoup his purchase price in slaughter value like the last one.

 

[inyati13]

Tom4018, I have talked to the 3 or 4 cattlemen here that have national reputations. They get $3,000 to $3,500 for their economy young virgin bulls. I saw Charlie Boyd at Mayslick Mill about a month ago and he was telling the store manager that he just sold some bulls at an auction and one went for $59,000. I am not inclined to spend more than $3,000 for a bull to breed commercial cows with. I just don't see a way to get much of that money in returns. But I am going to shop some this year and try to get a better bull.

 

[highgrit]

My bull is not putting the pounds on the ground like my last one either. A good bull will make you money, I won't buy a halfazz bull again. I did some math, and since I got this bull he's cost me 10k+ in 2 calf crops. Bull #1 weaned 600lb. calves, and bull #2 weans 500lb. calves. And the way I see it on 40 calves is, 40 x 100lbs. = 4000lbs. x $130.00 = $5200.00 And that's just in one year. Maybe one of the heavy hitters will tell us the real numbers, but what I' am seeing it ain't looking good. I' am buying a new bull this fall.

 

[jasonleonard]

Highgrit....your math is as sharp as a tack! I was a slow learner about using a quality bull, but I am going to breed 50 cows this year, so I can see spending more money on an extra good bull.
Lbs on the calves is where I make my $$$$!

 

[sizmic]

A good bull is worth 5 weaned calves as a rule of thumb. How much is that in todays money? My guess is way more than what people belly ache about paying. I have almost decided to quit selling bulls because I can steer them and get pretty close to what people want to pay for them as bulls.

Sizmic

 

[KNERSIE]

A good bull is worth 5 weaned calves as a rule of thumb.

The rule of thumb is 6 I believe, but I agree very few commercial breeders are prepared to give the seedstock guy his fair share.

Bull #1 weaned 600lb. calves, and bull #2 weans 500lb. calves. And the way I see it on 40 calves is, 40 x 100lbs. = 4000lbs. x $130.00 = $5200.00 And that's just in one year.

The best way to heavier weaning weights is better cows and that is a long term project. Very few (if any) bulls will make a 100lbs difference and typically those that will do have no business making cows.

Not disagreeing totally, but just pointing out that there is more to beef cattle breeding and even commercial beef farming than the academics using EPDs as a marketing tool will ever be able to incorporate into reliable, useful breeding values.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

What did most folks dislike about your bull Inyati? His long neck?

 

[inyati13]

What did most folks dislike about your bull Inyati? His long neck?

No, Tux it was not really that bad. The worse thing was he was a potential carrier of 3 genetic diseases and I tested him and he was clean. But some did not like his butt, feet and particularly his EPD numbers. I will say this, he is a very active bull when a cow comes in. I got three fall cows due to him and several for next spring. As best as I can tell, the cow he breeds has settled on the first heat every time so far. But the one calf I have out of him right now, is my smallest calf and not really growing as fast as the others have.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

I remember that thread now. It generated quite a few opinions.

When do you suppose you'll be in the market for a new bull?

 

[inyati13]

This fall to late winter.

 

[dun]

Where did his EPDs fall compared to the breed average?

 

[ohiosteve]

The best way to heavier weaning weights is better cows and that is a long term project. Very few (if any) bulls will make a 100lbs difference and typically those that will do have no business making cows.

Not disagreeing totally, but just pointing out that there is more to beef cattle breeding and even commercial beef farming than the academics using EPDs as a marketing tool will ever be able to incorporate into reliable, useful breeding values.

KNERSIE, what is your opinion on linebreeding? I have limited experience breeding beef cattle but it seems to me using a good linebred bull is the way to go, especially if you have subpar cows. Seems to me the streamlined DNA and prepotency allows the bull to pass more of his traits to his offspring where the offspring from an outcrossed bull will retain most of the dam's traits. Am I thinking wrong or is there truth in this? I ask because I respect your opinion. Not trying to hijack your thread Inyati I figured you wouldn't mind the question.

 

[djinwa]

Heavier calves are of course better, but I'm wondering if the math is that simple. Are those extra pounds free, or do they take more feed to get?

And Knersie, you mention improving the cows to get heavier calves. Do those better cows have the same feed consumption?

 

[KNERSIE]

Heavier calves are of course better, but I'm wondering if the math is that simple. Are those extra pounds free, or do they take more feed to get?

And Knersie, you mention improving the cows to get heavier calves. Do those better cows have the same feed consumption?

Yes, that is why I said better cows not bigger cows. When it comes to efficient cows its really all about type, your environment will dictate how far you can push those heavy weaning weights before running into do-ability and reproductive issues, but generally there will be a type that will stay fat, bred back early and wean good heavy calves, you just need to identify that type for your area. Typically it's the moderate, big barreled, wide from end to end and well fleshed cow that will do it in most areas. The better the conditions the more refined you can go for extra milk production, but you will lose muscle in the process and then a good continental bull will be needed to offset the angularity of the cows and produce growthy marketable calfs.

KNERSIE, what is your opinion on linebreeding? I have limited experience breeding beef cattle but it seems to me using a good linebred bull is the way to go, especially if you have subpar cows. Seems to me the streamlined DNA and prepotency allows the bull to pass more of his traits to his offspring where the offspring from an outcrossed bull will retain most of the dam's traits. Am I thinking wrong or is there truth in this? I ask because I respect your opinion. Not trying to hijack your thread Inyati I figured you wouldn't mind the question.

Steve, its difficult to say with any certainty how much benefit you'll get from a linebred bull, to be honest I don't believe all teh claims made by some long time linebreeders, especially when they claim the prepotency of their bulls nullify Mendell's laws of inheritance! I do think that there will definitely be an advantage to using linebred bulls, but if it will be a much bigger advantage as opposed to using bulls from a solid breeding program that produces the right type consistently, without close-breeding, I honestly can't say.

All that said, I linebreed my poll herefords with good results, but I'm not far enough along to really tell you how much benefit there is. I'm expecting my first set of second generation halfsib mating calves very soon. The first generation of double bred calves were very good, it will be interesting to see how their calves will look when the same bull is 4 times the great grandsire, but I'll be able to tell you soon enough.

 

[inyati13]

Highgrit....your math is as sharp as a tack! I was a slow learner about using a quality bull, but I am going to breed 50 cows this year, so I can see spending more money on an extra good bull.
Lbs on the calves is where I make my $$$$!

Jason, the problem I will have on spending a lot on a bull is the small number of cows that I run to bring some of that money back. I will breed 13 cows this year. Some of those AI. So you can see, if I buy a $5,000 bull it will be impossible for him to make enough difference to return some of the $5 k. I would guess the most cows I will ever run on my 80 acres is about 20.

 

[Caustic Burno]

Highgrit....your math is as sharp as a tack! I was a slow learner about using a quality bull, but I am going to breed 50 cows this year, so I can see spending more money on an extra good bull.
Lbs on the calves is where I make my $$$$!

Jason, the problem I will have on spending a lot on a bull is the small number of cows that I run to bring some of that money back. I will breed 13 cows this year. Some of those AI. So you can see, if I buy a $5,000 bull it will be impossible for him to make enough difference to return some of the $5 k. I would guess the most cows I will ever run on my 80 acres is about 20.

Something I like to do is buy my bull's at 7 to 10 month's old.
I get some really great line's at decent price's the last bull I bought paid 1000 dollar's for him at 8 month's old.
Now there are drawback's here you need an experienced eye, you are assumeing some of the risk that the seedstock producer normally does, as this becomes buyer beware. You have to hold on to the old bull until the young bull can pass a BSE. If he fail's he is salebarn material. There is no shortcut in raiseing a bull.
This is not a great posed shot. This bull will be three in Oct.

 

[fitz]

Highgrit....your math is as sharp as a tack! I was a slow learner about using a quality bull, but I am going to breed 50 cows this year, so I can see spending more money on an extra good bull.
Lbs on the calves is where I make my $$$$!

Jason, the problem I will have on spending a lot on a bull is the small number of cows that I run to bring some of that money back. I will breed 13 cows this year. Some of those AI. So you can see, if I buy a $5,000 bull it will be impossible for him to make enough difference to return some of the $5 k. I would guess the most cows I will ever run on my 80 acres is about 20.

With that situation I see your concern. I think if you take your time in shopping you should be able to find a nice backup Bull for your AI program for a lot less than 5000.
On the other end though,while I certainly realize there are exceptions, most times a 1500.00 Bull is probably a 1500.00 Bull. My opinion only.

fitz

 

[TN Cattle Man]

Highgrit....your math is as sharp as a tack! I was a slow learner about using a quality bull, but I am going to breed 50 cows this year, so I can see spending more money on an extra good bull.
Lbs on the calves is where I make my $$$$!

Jason, the problem I will have on spending a lot on a bull is the small number of cows that I run to bring some of that money back. I will breed 13 cows this year. Some of those AI. So you can see, if I buy a $5,000 bull it will be impossible for him to make enough difference to return some of the $5 k. I would guess the most cows I will ever run on my 80 acres is about 20.

Inyati... just a suggestion, but have you ever thought about leasing a bull? Not sure what the availability is in your neck of the woods but around here you can lease a really decent bull for minimal dollars. We leased one of our young Red Angus bulls to a neighbor and it worked out well for him. Seems to me that would be a good way to go for someone who had a limited number of cows and was looking to improve his herd. :2cents:

 

[tom4018]

Highgrit....your math is as sharp as a tack! I was a slow learner about using a quality bull, but I am going to breed 50 cows this year, so I can see spending more money on an extra good bull.
Lbs on the calves is where I make my $$$$!

Jason, the problem I will have on spending a lot on a bull is the small number of cows that I run to bring some of that money back. I will breed 13 cows this year. Some of those AI. So you can see, if I buy a $5,000 bull it will be impossible for him to make enough difference to return some of the $5 k. I would guess the most cows I will ever run on my 80 acres is about 20.

Inyati... just a suggestion, but have you ever thought about leasing a bull? Not sure what the availability is in your neck of the woods but around here you can lease a really decent bull for minimal dollars. We leased one of our young Red Angus bulls to a neighbor and it worked out well for him. Seems to me that would be a good way to go for someone who had a limited number of cows and was looking to improve his herd. :2cents:

Around here traders buy stockyard bulls that look decent and lease them out. Seen very few bulls of known breeding leased here. My biggest issue would be health issues, you don't know where the bull has been. A lot of people don't vacinate so he may bring something in.