Moderate Frame

[S&MGrosse]

Is TJ FRANCHISE considered a frame size reducer (stature) ?

 

[simme]

He is listed as 54.5" mature height and 2115 pounds. That's about a 4.25 frame. I have one calf from him. Definitely smaller frame than his dam. Franchise is the second most used bull in the breed based on calves registered with ASA in the last 12 months. Calves are heavy and thick based on what I hear/see. But that frame is too small I think.

 

[S&MGrosse]

He is listed as 54.5" mature height and 2115 pounds. That's about a 4.25 frame. I have one calf from him. Definitely smaller frame than his dam. Franchise is the second most used bull in the breed based on calves registered with ASA in the last 12 months. Calves are heavy and thick based on what I hear/see. But that frame is too small I think.

I used him on some "too big" cows and the heifers and bull calves are some of the best I've ever had...

 

[Son of Butch]

Is TJ FRANCHISE considered a frame size reducer (stature) ?

Simmental association apparently says who cares - and doesn't bother to collect data on mature height or weight for epds - sheesh

 

[simme]

Simmental association apparently says who cares - and doesn't bother to collect data on mature height or weight for epds - sheesh

The simmental association does collect that data and more. Here is some of the information they ask for and beg for. All of it is not required in order to register calves, but will be used if it is submitted. And the association recognizes the herds that do submit the max data.

Weaning weight and date, horned, polled or scurred, color, calf management - creep or not, weaning disposition score, weaning hip height, weaning sheath score, weight of dam, hip height of dam, BCS of dam, udder score for dam, yearling weight, yearling docility, yearling hip height, yearling scrotal circumference, yearling pelvic height, yearling pelvic width, claw set, hoof angle, rear leg score.
That's a pretty extensive list.

 

[Son of Butch]

The simmental association does collect that data and more.

Then which edp answers S&MGrosse's question about tj transformer?
Does TJ Transformer reduce stature?

 

[simme]

Then which edp answers S&MGrosse's question about tj transformer?
Does TJ Transformer reduce stature?

Franchise, not Transformer. But, yes TJ Franchise is a smaller frame bull. Suspect he would increase frame on a 3 frame cow if anyone was unlucky enough to have one. He should reduce frame on those 6 and 7 frame cows.
I think your point is that ASA does not currently publish YH or MH EPD like the angus people do. But, they do collect data. Perhaps to offer those epd's in the future based on a larger data set.
Interesting that the AAA MH epd is based on only 125,000 records while their BW epd is based on 9.5 million records. Apparently, it is difficult to get members to turn in data for mature height. If the members don't measure and submit data, the epd can't be worth much. A couple of epd's that ASA has and AAA does not - STAY (cow longevity) and SHR (shear/tenderness).

 

[Son of Butch]

I think your point is that ASA does not currently publish YH or MH EPD like the angus people do. But, they do collect data.

My real point was, How is S&MGrosse suppose to know when the breed association gives him no guidance on the most highly inherited trait of all traits, Stature.

 

[kenny thomas]

All I hear is we are supposed to use moderate frame but they come out being short and not selling well. Who is wanting these moderate frame (,short) calves

 

[Stocker Steve]

Gr

All I hear is we are supposed to use moderate frame but they come out being short and not selling well. Who is wanting these moderate frame (,short) calves

Grass Finishers

 

[kenny thomas]

No grass finishers here but I could understand that

 

[kentuckyguy]

I don't care as much about frame size as weight and thickness on the frame. I like short legged soggy cattle.
A cow doesn't have to be 5ft at the hip to weight 1700lbs. I don't mind a big cow on smaller legs and frame.

 

[GoWyo]

I don't care about leg length. I want them to be able to walk properly and move in a fluid fashion. That requires the bone lengths and angles to all be in the proper proportion for a proper foundation. I don't care if they live in a 10-acre pasture or a 10,000-acre pasture, they need to be structurally correct.

 

[Rmc]

What does height have to do with anything?
To me height has nothing to do with frame size. No way a long legged skinny no butted cow is better then a shorter legged ,properly structured wide barrel shaped cow.

 

[Son of Butch]

What does height have to do with anything?

Height is a measurement to determine if a cow is short, average or tall. - duh

You just stated you prefer a shorter cow to a taller cow.
How is S&MGrosse to know if the bull in question sires them tall or short if the breed association collects the data, but doesn't share it?

 

[wbvs58]

What does height have to do with anything?
To me height has nothing to do with frame size. No way a long legged skinny no butted cow is better then a shorter legged ,properly structured wide barrel shaped cow.

Probably nothing but around here calves are sold straight off their mothers and the buyers definitely like the ones with a bit of height to them

Ken

 

[Stocker Steve]

Probably nothing but around here calves are sold straight off their mothers and the buyers definitely like the ones with a bit of height to them

Ken

It is a tradeoff like many things in life. The ideal feedlot calf will be produced by a bigger taller less efficient cow. So does this ideal feedlot calf actually making the producer more money? Depends on feed costs and calf pricing premiums, and feed is very expensive now.

 

[simme]

What does height have to do with anything?
To me height has nothing to do with frame size. No way a long legged skinny no butted cow is better then a shorter legged ,properly structured wide barrel shaped cow.

There is an equation to calculate frame score. The variables in the equation are hip height and age in days. So, height has pretty much everything to do with frame score.
A tall cow is not necessarily skinny with no butt, just as a short cow does not guarantee proper structure and wide barrel shape. Like other traits, extreme on either end is probably best avoided.

 

[Rmc]

Height is a measurement to determine if a cow is short, average or tall. - duh

You just stated you prefer a shorter cow to a taller cow.

Nope
Read what I said again. I said a wider barrel shaped properly structured cow is better then a skinny no butted cow . Regardless of leg length.
Last I checked you received very little meat from the knee to the hoof of a cow .

 

[Son of Butch]

Nope
Read what I said again. I said a wider barrel shaped properly structured cow is better then a skinny no butted cow . Regardless of leg length.
Last I checked you received very little meat from the knee to the hoof of a cow .

I swear your post contained both of the words short and tall,
maybe we both need to read it again.

And the op was asking if TJ franchise sired cattle short, medium or tall in stature.