Measurement for bulls???

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Jeanne - Simme Valley

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We have a country paper and they always have articles about individual farms/operations.
There is an article about Heritage grass-fed Devon cattle.
The guy refers to a measurement that he follows:
"Bulls should be a minimum of five inches wider across the shoulder than the length of the rump"
Anyone heard of this before? I am not familiar with comparing the measurement of shoulder width & rump length??
Personally, I don't want any bull or cow with wide shoulders, so I don't know where this is taking him.
 

Ebenezer

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Dr. Jan Bonsma is the reference. He observed and defined proper cattle by visual traits but also used data. As a comparative. Football team sitting on a bench. They generally touch shoulder to shoulder. Female cheerleaders also sit on a bench. They generally touch hip to hip. Dr. Bonsma's applied knowledge will help improve cattle quicker than any EPD. There are books, copies of lectures, ... Not easy to read and more to absorb than I will ever comprehend but a refreshing way to know a bit more about your cattle. Some proponents and self-proclaimed Bonsman gurus are to be avoided at all costs. Read Bonsma before you decide which ones are fakes. The pictures of animals they select will key you in ASAP.

Funny that you want no bull with broad shoulders. Hard pulls are generally hip locked.
 

Ky hills

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":36fz6ssw said:
We have a country paper and they always have articles about individual farms/operations.
There is an article about Heritage grass-fed Devon cattle.
The guy refers to a measurement that he follows:
"Bulls should be a minimum of five inches wider across the shoulder than the length of the rump"
Anyone heard of this before? I am not familiar with comparing the measurement of shoulder width & rump length??
Personally, I don't want any bull or cow with wide shoulders, so I don't know where this is taking him.

Years ago before EPD's an older Charolais breeder used to say to stand behind a bull and if you could see his shoulders wider than his hips you did not want him as he would be hard calving.
 
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Jeanne - Simme Valley

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Got to get by the shoulders first before they are hip locked. I like my females and males smooth, flat shouldered. Granted, when you have a powerhouse in the rear quarters, you are going to have "some" shoulder. But, I avoid massive shoulders like the plague.
But, this particular measurement - couldn't you be developing short hipped bulls? Just seems extremely strange, but, logically skeletal shape/measurements should correlate with one another.
Edit: I like long hipped cattle.
Thanks for the reference. I never heard of it.
 

sim.-ang.king

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Small head, rounded shoulders, and a narrow hip seem to work good for a calving ease bull.
Don't know how that equats into actual measurements.
 

WalnutCrest

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":32lv9ko5 said:
We have a country paper and they always have articles about individual farms/operations.
There is an article about Heritage grass-fed Devon cattle.
The guy refers to a measurement that he follows:
"Bulls should be a minimum of five inches wider across the shoulder than the length of the rump"
Anyone heard of this before? I am not familiar with comparing the measurement of shoulder width & rump length??
Personally, I don't want any bull or cow with wide shoulders, so I don't know where this is taking him.

I suspect %'s are better than absolute measurements.

5" is a different deal on (say) a Scottish Highland than on a Blonde...
 

wbvs58

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":mmzqyyq0 said:
We have a country paper and they always have articles about individual farms/operations.
There is an article about Heritage grass-fed Devon cattle.
The guy refers to a measurement that he follows:
"Bulls should be a minimum of five inches wider across the shoulder than the length of the rump"
Anyone heard of this before? I am not familiar with comparing the measurement of shoulder width & rump length??
Personally, I don't want any bull or cow with wide shoulders, so I don't know where this is taking him.

Jeanne, does that mean they have wide shoulders or just short rumps?????

Ken
 
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Jeanne - Simme Valley

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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Ken - exactly!!!
This is an article of an interview. I have had many interviews and then read what they wrote, and thought "that makes me sound like an idiot". So, I NEVER let them print anything until I have proof read it.
The guy started cattle in 2002, and it quoted him saying "I was one of the first to get into rotational grazing". ???? Well, maybe he was "first" in his area???? He talks about "holistic pasture management" and "preserving the grazer soil relationship". Well, they show a picture of the cattle out on "pasture", but all I can identify in the picture is weeds.
 
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Jeanne - Simme Valley

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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ALACOWMAN":2ohzhwqx said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":2ohzhwqx said:
Got to get by the shoulders first before they are hip locked....... and that big Simmental head :D
I laughed also, but soooo true - with any breed. Actually, this used to be also very true about Herefords, because they had such wide heads.
I don't care what breed, all have problems within the breed. Everyone needs to pay attention to shape - sometimes you need to ignore PAPERWORK and LOOK at the cattle.
 

Ebenezer

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Ky hills":3osqnomq said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":3osqnomq said:
We have a country paper and they always have articles about individual farms/operations.
There is an article about Heritage grass-fed Devon cattle.
The guy refers to a measurement that he follows:
"Bulls should be a minimum of five inches wider across the shoulder than the length of the rump"
Anyone heard of this before? I am not familiar with comparing the measurement of shoulder width & rump length??
Personally, I don't want any bull or cow with wide shoulders, so I don't know where this is taking him.

Years ago before EPD's an older Charolais breeder used to say to stand behind a bull and if you could see his shoulders wider than his hips you did not want him as he would be hard calving.
He is one I would not follow. :)
 

Ebenezer

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sim.-ang.king":3crgp0yl said:
Small head, rounded shoulders, and a narrow hip seem to work good for a calving ease bull.
Don't know how that equats into actual measurements.
Continual selection for easy calving equals what kind of cattle?
 

Ebenezer

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":nq34ke71 said:
Ken - exactly!!!
This is an article of an interview. I have had many interviews and then read what they wrote, and thought "that makes me sound like an idiot". So, I NEVER let them print anything until I have proof read it.
The guy started cattle in 2002, and it quoted him saying "I was one of the first to get into rotational grazing". ???? Well, maybe he was "first" in his area???? He talks about "holistic pasture management" and "preserving the grazer soil relationship". Well, they show a picture of the cattle out on "pasture", but all I can identify in the picture is weeds.
Would not follow him either! :roll:
 

Ebenezer

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":jzr5uscv said:
ALACOWMAN":jzr5uscv said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":jzr5uscv said:
Got to get by the shoulders first before they are hip locked....... and that big Simmental head :D
I laughed also, but soooo true - with any breed. Actually, this used to be also very true about Herefords, because they had such wide heads.
I don't care what breed, all have problems within the breed. Everyone needs to pay attention to shape - sometimes you need to ignore PAPERWORK and LOOK at the cattle.
Do shoulder width measurements on a mature bull directly relate to head size in calves? Measurements in mature animals are also a function of their pattern of development and Bonsma was also looking at proper hormone balance and production in an animal.
 

Ky hills

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Jeanne - Simme Valley":206i6k1k said:
ALACOWMAN":206i6k1k said:
Jeanne - Simme Valley":206i6k1k said:
Got to get by the shoulders first before they are hip locked....... and that big Simmental head :D
I laughed also, but soooo true - with any breed. Actually, this used to be also very true about Herefords, because they had such wide heads.
I don't care what breed, all have problems within the breed. Everyone needs to pay attention to shape - sometimes you need to ignore PAPERWORK and LOOK at the cattle.

When I first saw the comment, I thought it could have read that big Hereford head as well.
Very true that there are problems within all breeds. I feel that the over emphasis on a particular tool such as EPD's and then an emphasis on certain traits such as carcass or high growth, can lead to a whole array of unintended consequences with a cattle breed.
 

76 Bar

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Clarification...should have made a distinction between the author in the newsletter Jeanne referenced and his likely source of his measurement comments. Apologies.
 

sim.-ang.king

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Ebenezer":elw6ykv9 said:
sim.-ang.king":elw6ykv9 said:
Small head, rounded shoulders, and a narrow hip seem to work good for a calving ease bull.
Don't know how that equats into actual measurements.
Continual selection for easy calving equals what kind of cattle?
Very imbalanced cattle. That's why your better off with heifers that are big hipped, and using a bull that isn't for any kind of balance if you keep any out of a CE bull. Strictly terminal otherwise.
 
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Jeanne - Simme Valley

Jeanne - Simme Valley

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76 Bar":173snda5 said:
Clarification...should have made a distinction between the author in the newsletter Jeanne referenced and his likely source of his measurement comments. Apologies.
Yes, he was quoting Fry. EDIT: they are Devon not South Devon - if there is a difference?)
there is no one answer to anything. You need balance. EPD's are actually getting more & more accurate - which (to me) is a scary thing - you can go after something and achieve it way too quickly. Every trait has something "linked" to it. Be careful of what you wish for.
 

76 Bar

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On Fry's sale page he makes reference to both Red Devons as well as simply Devons. OK State beef breeds web page (excellent resource) list two species of Devons:
http://afs.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/devon/index.html
http://afs.okstate.edu/breeds/cattle/southdevon/index.html
Haven't a clue which if either or both of the above had "Red" tacked on since time immemorial the breed has historically been red coated.
You need balance.
Absolutely. Which is precisely why I won't patronize a seed stock program that lacks a substantial history of successful commercial cattle success prior to embarking on and marketing purebred cattle.
EPD's are actually getting more & more accurate - which (to me) is a scary thing - you can go after something and achieve it way too quickly.
It bears repeating...EPDs are one of many tools. Used judiciously and with a thorough understanding and one's personal goals, they can be a boon. Sans the latter, a bust or worse, lead to future wrecks.
Every trait has something "linked" to it.
Its my understanding that often as not, most traits have multi links to a variety of other traits. Some you can live with, others could be quite detrimental in the long run. Which is say, pick your poison wisely. ;-)
 

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