Managing and Wintering Hard Keepers

[smnherf]

What I was getting at there are alot of hard doing cattle out there.

Sadly, through lack of comparison their owners are blissfully unaware of the fact that not all cattle are hard keepers, but then with those "ideal" EPDs they must be great. ;-)

Knersie, having been on the ground on some of these seedstock places, I don't think most of their owners even know that they are hard keepers. They have concrete troughs. They drop a couple of horse hay quality roll bales into a mixer truck along with a ton of corn, ~400 lbs of soybean meal, and ~100 lbs of custom mineral mix. The truck mixes and grinds everything up and the guy goes out and feeds 6-12 lbs of feed per head. And they do this ALL winter and deep into the spring. They got creep feeders out all summer and fall and some herds keep grain out to the cows all 365 days of the year. The cows stay fat and everybody ooohs and ahhhhs over how 'thick', 'easy fleshing', 'superior', 'fat and sassy' their cows look. Avg weaning weight is 700++ lbs and the top calves blow past 1200 lbs as yearlings. Then the bulls go out in the real world, sire a whole bunch of heifers, and the commercial cow man is complaining about the "hard keepers". A lot of them are bred for feedlot performance and maximum milk. Of course most of us know all of this; but bigger and fatter and a flashier EPD still sells cattle.

I couldn't agree more. If you always are feeding for maximum gain, fleshing ability is very hard to measure.

The commercial bull buyers are part to blame too. I was at a couple sales this past week. One a breeders sale who had fed the bulls pretty hard but probably had one of the best sales in the region this year and one a consignment sale where the fat bulls were rewarded too. A lot of people have a hard time distinguishing between fat and true muscle.

 

[Herefords.US]

The commercial bull buyers are part to blame too. I was at a couple sales this past week. One a breeders sale who had fed the bulls pretty hard but probably had one of the best sales in the region this year and one a consignment sale where the fat bulls were rewarded too. A lot of people have a hard time distinguishing between fat and true muscle.

Assuming the bulls were fed the same way, wouldn't the FAT bulls likely be the easier keepers?
:?:

George

 

[KNERSIE]

The commercial bull buyers are part to blame too. I was at a couple sales this past week. One a breeders sale who had fed the bulls pretty hard but probably had one of the best sales in the region this year and one a consignment sale where the fat bulls were rewarded too. A lot of people have a hard time distinguishing between fat and true muscle.

Assuming the bulls were fed the same way, wouldn't the FAT bulls likely be the easier keepers?
:?:

George

Not neccesarily when forced to get by on a different feeding regime or no feeding regime except natural forage.

But generally those that tends to get overfat on a high energy ration would fare better under more difficult conditions, but then again fat weighs less than meat so they typically wouldn't be the high gainers in the eat as much as you like growth tests either.

 

[Herefords.US]

The commercial bull buyers are part to blame too. I was at a couple sales this past week. One a breeders sale who had fed the bulls pretty hard but probably had one of the best sales in the region this year and one a consignment sale where the fat bulls were rewarded too. A lot of people have a hard time distinguishing between fat and true muscle.

Assuming the bulls were fed the same way, wouldn't the FAT bulls likely be the easier keepers?
:?:

George

Not neccesarily when forced to get by on a different feeding regime or no feeding regime except natural forage.

But generally those that tends to get overfat on a high energy ration would fare better under more difficult conditions, but then again fat weighs less than meat so they typically wouldn't be the high gainers in the eat as much as you like growth tests either.

I realize using "fatness" as judgment of being "easy keeping" would not absolutely be correct all the time. But what else could a person use as judgment, when arriving at a sale on sale day and seeing 100+ bulls fed the same way, all from the same breeding program, and knowing little or nothing about the individual ancestors? If I was looking for an "easy keeping" bull, I wouldn't be looking at their EPDs - I'd be looking at the fattest bulls in the group, then making my choice from them.

I'd bet that if a person passed on all the fat bulls and picked out one of the thinner bulls in the group, superior muscling or not, they'd almost always be getting a bull that was going to be one of those "harder keeping" kind.

George

 

[mnmtranching]

If I were to go bull shopping at a auction or breeder that feeds a high energy ration to put the pounds of fat on his bull I would go for the fattest ones. Doesn't say much for the thinner bulls on a ration like that. Buying fat bulls like that won't work for me.
I buy bulls from breeders that use high roughage rations. Get a good doing young bull on roughage and he won't loose 200 pounds when turned out with cows. And odds are will Winter better in the real world of the commercial cowman.

 

[smnherf]

No doubt about it, buying a thin bull at a fat bull sale isn't the thing to do to improve fleshing ability. My point was there are too many fat bulls around and many people don't realize how fat they really are. The latest thing is to ultrasound and put the REA and the IMF data but don't list the backfat measurement. Are you that embarassed by how much fat is on your bulls?

I am curious to know how much bf is acceptable to bull buyers when you buy your bulls?

 

[Northern Rancher]

I'll tell you which bulls I buy at 'the children of the corn' sales. NONE!!!!! When they range from fat to obese there's really not much to pick from. The thin ones have a liver like a back alley wino and the fat ones melt like wax breeding cows.

 

[angusbreederms]

During the winter I supply good quality hay, free choice minerals, and lick tubs for my cattle. The only ones I might pull out and supplement with grain are my first calf heifers. This really helps out on getting those heifers bred back quickly. When an older cow starts to show her age by dropping too much weight in the winter, I sell her in the spring.

 

[CattleHand]

You bring up a "wintering" question.

I have some cows and heifers that have a real "fuzzy" coat in the winter and some that are smooth and shiney as you describe.

Logic might lead to the conclusion the fuzzy coat ones would do better in the subzero temps and winds but actually the smooth shiney Herefords seem to do as well or better in the cold.

Is there some logic to coat and appearance and wintering ability?

maybe its like a ducks feathers. They lay down so close and tight it keeps water out. the smooth hides have hairs that lay down close and tigh to keep heat in.... good question though.

 

[alacattleman]

I'll tell you which bulls I buy at 'the children of the corn' sales. NONE!!!!! When they range from fat to obese there's really not much to pick from. The thin ones have a liver like a back alley wino and the fat ones melt like wax breeding cows.

are you talking about high corn concentrates, causing liver damage?