Management

[Jake]

I posed this same question on Ranchers, but interested to hear some viewpoints here as well.
Having a heated debate with my father last night on management practices made me wonder. Through the tough/leaner times in the cattle industry what do you folks see as the management keys that differentiated people who made money and lost money. Whether it was calving seasons, culling practices, or whatever you thought were the keys to success/failure.

 

[snake67]

I posed this same question on Ranchers, but interested to hear some viewpoints here as well.
Having a heated debate with my father last night on management practices made me wonder. Through the tough/leaner times in the cattle industry what do you folks see as the management keys that differentiated people who made money and lost money. Whether it was calving seasons, culling practices, or whatever you thought were the keys to success/failure.

Howdy Jake

In my mind it is a combination of things - stretching the feed, culling hard, close eye on calves and at calving time and a lot of good luck. There is a lot more - there is in fact no one thing that gets you through - it is a combination of things. I could probably write a book on it.

The other side of the item from my perspective is we did not go out and stretch the budget with new purchases. I still drive the old truck but the rust is getting pretty bad - might have to get another one in a couple of years. Still driving the 2002 car to boot.

Then, we have to realize that the other side of this is how big were the payments before hard times hit? Some folks were going to make it until the bottom fell out and that came at exactly the wrong time - meaning they fell simply because of bad timing.

Without sounding like an azz, your tough times that just passed would have been easy going to those who went through BSE up here.

When you sell a real nice black angus bull and get 2.5 cents a pound for him and bred cows go for 30 - 35 cents a pound - you have to tighten the belt a bit to get by. Actually you have to pull the darned thing right tight and be determined to not go down. Meaning there is also a mental aspect to the game.

Probably the most important thing that helped us survive was the fact that we did not truck feed - we trucked cows to feed - far cheaper in the long run than bringing in hay.

And finally, it was community. When I ran out of feed and money one time, about 100 - 5 foot round bales showed up at the door and there was no cost and no delivery. I have done the same for others - delivering some free hay to people who needed it, did not have it and could not buy it.

Many who did not make it often fell to the delight of certain community members - in this area they went down accompanied by tears. The worst was my daughters boyfriend committing suicide when the banks moved in on him less thantwo years after he bought it. If only he had said something.....

So to answer your question, in my mind there is no one single right answer - but if you do not have family and community on side, then you are going to find it real hard. It takes courage, work ethic, the capability to pound pennies into dimes, the willingness to stay out of the new equipment market. It takes planning, a feed program, a good genetics plan, a darned good relationship with your veterinarian and above all it takes knowledge - school, ag programs and experience and more. If youhave the above, you will succeed - as long as you keep the expenses down.

Now, go tell the old man I said hello and then give him a hug - he might not show it but he will love it!

Best to all

Bez

 

[JWBrahman]

I have seen more than a handful go under in my neighborhood during the last ten years. What I see over and over again is pride ratcheting up the input costs. It is no different than any business. When I was younger I used to question my grandfather, "Why don't you own a cattle trailer? Why don't you have a big truck? How come you have the oldest tractor on earth? Why don't you have as many cows as the neighbors?"

Now I understand how he was able to make money year in and year out every year from the time he got back from WWII until he died in 2000. He could care less what anybody else thought, he was only interested in what would make him money.

 

[cow pollinater]

I could tell you what MY strategy would be with MY cows but after twelve years of selling genetics into both beef and dairy herds and finding out what works for who and why, the only answer that I can honestly give is that it's a different answer for every operation.
One trend that I have seen over time is that if you are capable of putting money in in times that are lean for the entire industry in your area, there is usually a nice return on that money.

 

[Dave]

I got a piece of advice some years ago that I think is an important one. Everyone has an unfair advantage in some way when looking at the industry as a whole. The secret is figuring out what that unfair advantage is and monopolizing on it. It might be distance to market, a low cost local feed source, or any number of things but everyone has it in one shape or another.

 

[denvermartinfarms]

I have never lost money on cattle, so I can't really say exactly makes me different from those that have, but these are some things I think have helped.

I never have to buy hay, when we have good years I save alot of hay and when we have a drought and only get a 1/3 as much off a field as normal, I'm not out there paying 60 or 80$ a bale like some are, I am feeding hay I have less than 25$ in.

Over the last 10 years I have an average of just over 11 months between calves on all my cows.

Another thing that has been hard for me to do but I feel is more profitable, is I stopped keeping as many heifers for cows, waiting 3 years to have something to sell out of a heifer is waiting a long time. I always have felt I could raise better heifers for cows than I could buy, but so far just keeping the very top few and then selling the majority and putting that into good bred cows has seemed to work out better.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Jake-

All of the answers here are absolutely right on target, but snake67 has said it all! When times were so tough (1933-1943) that you conned your kids into thinking that you didn't get hungry any more so that they could have enough to eat - THAT affects you for the rest of your lfe, both physically and mentally!

DOC HARRIS

 

[Jake]

Jake-

All of the answers here are absolutely right on target, but snake67 has said it all! When times were so tough (1933-1943) that you conned your kids into thinking that you didn't get hungry any more so that they could have enough to eat - THAT affects you for the rest of your lfe, both physically and mentally!

DOC HARRIS

We are digressing a little from what I intended this to be. I was looking more on a micro level than the theoretical level. We have done a good job historically for our environment with those things. It's the little things like culling open cows instead of always keeping them. Buying a bull versus saving your own. Selling a poor producer instead of giving her excuses. My questions is how do others in a family situation deal with the little things that make you do this. :bang: At the end of the day the majority of the herd is not in my name, but some day I would like it to be and I dont want to have to work in the mean time with a bunch of junk and end up with them in the end.

 

[snake67]

Hi Jake

I think we all missed the point because of the way you presented it.

Now I understand - you were not talking about management of a herd - you actually were talking about business management within a family - which is difficult and can be a problem.

In essence you need to be focused on farm succession, farm management and a division of responsibilities at this point - NOT animal management.

You can manage the animals at any time - but if you and the family do not have an agreement you will never see any change in what you are doing from today forward.

Heck, he might even sell it all off if the mood hits him - it is his perogative.

There is a tonne of advice out there on how to do it - but you need to sit down and have an honest and open and NON heated discussion with your father as to what HIS plans are - right now yours do not matter as he holds the keys.

Any time there is a heated discussion, put this thought into your head - YOU are half of the problem! LOL So work on that as well. Not always easy in a family situation but it can be done.

Start from there. Heck if you want a mediator I will fly down and sit in the middle when the snow hits here - but you have to pick me up at the airport and house me and feed me at the farm! LOL

Start with Dad - you need to know what HE wants - because your ideas might be important to you - but the fact is he is the owner and drives the boat.

Do not be surprised if this takes at least three to ten sit down discussions.

Take notes and keep records and for heavens sake - be calm!

Best to you

Bez

 

[ALACOWMAN]

theres always the '''come on Grandpaw lets go for a ride'''..... :cowboy:

 

[JWBrahman]

theres always the '''come on Grandpaw lets go for a ride'''..... :cowboy:

Hahaha, thank goodness you can choose your friends because you are stuck with your family.

Bez, you are a wise man with a clever mind. We need people like you down here in Louisiana. If you ever get tired of that four letter word (snow) the state would be glad to have you.

Specific advice: I was in something of the same situation that you now find yourself in with your father. I offered to purchase part of the family farm from my grandfather so that I could run it the way I wanted. Sounds simple but it made my grandfather a happy man, and it made me happy to give the old guy the kind of respect he deserved for all of his years of hard work. In the end since I was the only one willing to do that I got the best piece of property.

Hope that helps,
JW

 

[Engler]

Talk to Dr Ron Hansen at the University of Neb. I've seen his presentation a couple of times and it's pretty heavy stuff, but he's seen many situations and helped a lot of people.

I've tried to get several people to go talk to him (both professional relationships and personal) and nobody will yet, but I think that succession planning is something that every business (and a farm is a business we need to remember) needs to look at and way too few small businesses do.

Some advice that all second and third generation people need to remember, including me.
1)There are a thousand different ways to do it, but as long as Dad, Grandpa, Aunt Jane or whoever hold the checkbook, their vote is the one that counts.
2)We are not owed an inheritance, if they want to blow 90% of it on whiskey, women and song and waste the rest, it's theirs, they can.
3)The good lord gave you 2 eyes, 2 ears and 1 mouth. Random chance, you make the call.
4)You can't unsay a mean or nasty thing. Choose your words carefully and there are going to be a lot of times that you have to bite your lip.

There are a million other one liners that also apply, but I think those kind of make the point. Good luck to you and remember data is you friend when you go into those discussions. I know that I've battled Dad on stuff and when I can lay something down in black and white it really helps.

 

[snake67]

theres always the '''come on Grandpaw lets go for a ride'''..... :cowboy:

Hahaha, thank goodness you can choose your friends because you are stuck with your family.

Bez, you are a wise man with a clever mind. We need people like you down here in Louisiana. If you ever get tired of that four letter word (snow) the state would be glad to have you.

Specific advice: I was in something of the same situation that you now find yourself in with your father. I offered to purchase part of the family farm from my grandfather so that I could run it the way I wanted. Sounds simple but it made my grandfather a happy man, and it made me happy to give the old guy the kind of respect he deserved for all of his years of hard work. In the end since I was the only one willing to do that I got the best piece of property.

Hope that helps,
JW

Thanks for the kind words - pick the place - I am ready to move!!

(As an aside - about 20 years ago I attempted to buy a business in Montana and provide jobs to the locals - coming with money - doing it the legal way. My family and I were refused permanent residence into the US of A because "You do not meet the immediate demographic requirements of the United States of America")

Anyways - to continue .....

In the end the family owns it - they will worry about how it is to be cared for after they die - and we all die - so it is important they get it and accept it.

As long as there is a plan and the big one - money to pay for everything when the final owner dies - then it can carry on.

It might mean spending cash now to ensure successful succession - but I do not know all the details - and of course if I did I would not be commenting here.

Notes, data, a quiet place to talk - all cell phones off - some coffee and a few sandwiches - and a plan and a discussion about the wants and needs of the owner first - the up and coming owner second.

Eventually most people come around and make the right choices - and often it is too late when it starts and it is not finished when they are dead - meaning the lawyers and accountants get the big payday.

I am out of this one - in fact I am doing the succession thing right now - so I am sort of up on it.

Best to all

Bez

 

[bigbull338]

your main prob is this your dad has a differant management set than you.an he knows he is getting older an that 1 day youll take over.an he wants tobe in control of the farm an do things his way as long as he can.as you go through tough times you learn to fine tune your skills.there are things you cant be fully prepared for like droughts low cattle prices high feed an hay prices.you just adjust an do thye best you can.

 

[gizmom]

Jake

A couple of years ago they had a presentation at the NCBA concerning this very topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIZ8I_x4BGw. I tried to find a link to the presentation but couldn't I did find this untube video on the brothers that run this operation. This would be a good resource for you.

Gizmom

 

[DOC HARRIS]

Jake-

Every generation and every "family" business - whether it is Agricultural or "Big City Commercial" that builds and sells "Widgets" - has the same problems that you are experiencing right now. One of the largest and most important aspects and discussion points that you can learn - RIGHT NOW - is to watch your 'body language', and keep your mouth closed when you should be listening! You are living in and experiencing the throes of the "Generation GAP", and you have to realize that 'Daddy' has been accustomed to running things, and telling you how to live since you were born. That was his job when Momma said to him "Dear - Guess what we are going to have seven months from now?!" (Understand it took two months for her to be sure that you were on the way!) :wave: He has not been trained to let you have your own way yet! I agree with your long term concepts of the land, herd, cattle management practices - the whole ball of wax. But you must understand that he probably doesn't agree wholeheatedly with all of the new High-Falutin ideas and ways of doin' that K-State shoved into you. Your new degree did not suddenly make you the "Do all and Know All" of the family (except that it very probably really DID do just that!).
The bottom line here is - pay close attention to those of us who have "Been there and done that and have the ripped up "T" shirts" to show for our struggling efforts to keep peace in the family. It is tough and anger will NOT work. Peace, love, and Prayer will do more good than anything else.

Good luck - and don't be afraid to ask The Lord for help along the way!

DOC HARRIS

 

[denvermartinfarms]

The way we handle those specific examples you gave is, we never raise our own bulls, I sell any cow that is still open 6 months after calving, and if any cows calf is not at a very minimum of 500lbs at 7 months or less they get a ride.

 

[cow pollinater]

I've seen quite a few family cattle businesses, mostly dairy but a few beef, with this same conflict. I've even had two customers who dropped me and wanted me to go do their kids place instead so that they knew at least that part of the program would work the way they wanted it to. What I have come to understand over time is that what the younger generation sees as stubborn, old-fashioned, antiquated, backwards is often what the older generation sees as safe, predictable, easy enough that there is little risk(and often understanding that the reward will not be as big) so that they don't have to risk seeing their kids fail if a big sweeping change doesn't pay off. I see it as an overabundance of caution and care on the older generations part.
I think the key to reaching an agreement is to recognize that you are both trying to reach the same goal. You have different ways of going about it but if you focus on the end result then it's working on a problem together and having minor differences of opinion along the way instead of butting heads over little stuff. You could maybe try a challenge like do half my way and half yours and bet a six pack on the results and make it fun but if you're both butting heads over every little thing then even the simple stuff that you would otherwise agree on will get all #@!$ed up as you're both so busy trying to be right that you lose sight of the goal and start taking sides on whatever battle you can find.
The most under asked question in humanity is "Why?" Instead of just being mad that people don't see everything your way, ask why they want to do it the way they want to do it. If it doesn't make sense, keep asking why until it does. If it never makes sense to you then it probably doesn't to them either and by then you can slip in enough logic to get your way or you'll understand their logic enough to go along with it.

 

[snake67]

Jake-

snip ....

The bottom line here is - pay close attention to those of us who have "Been there and done that and have the ripped up "T" shirts" to show for our struggling efforts to keep peace in the family. It is tough and anger will NOT work. Peace, love, and Prayer will do more good than anything else.

Good luck - and don't be afraid to ask The Lord for help along the way!

DOC HARRIS

Hi Doc

Wish I had learned those words of yours twenty years prior to when I did - my life would have been a lot simpler.

I banged my head on a lot of rocks in the years before I was 40 - life is so much simpler now.

Be safe my friend

Bez

 

[ALACOWMAN]

theres always the '''come on Grandpaw lets go for a ride'''..... :cowboy:

Hahaha, thank goodness you can choose your friends because you are stuck with your family.

Bez, you are a wise man with a clever mind. We need people like you down here in Louisiana. If you ever get tired of that four letter word (snow) the state would be glad to have you.

Specific advice: I was in something of the same situation that you now find yourself in with your father. I offered to purchase part of the family farm from my grandfather so that I could run it the way I wanted. Sounds simple but it made my grandfather a happy man, and it made me happy to give the old guy the kind of respect he deserved for all of his years of hard work. In the end since I was the only one willing to do that I got the best piece of property.

Hope that helps,
JW

yall already got the Landry's.. what more could you want
:cowboy: