Lucid Dream

[inyati13]

CNS Dream On L186 X LBR Right Dream H830
Born October 26, 2015

 

[Muddy]

Eh.....

 

[inyati13]

TIM

No amount of words will change one hair on his body. I think he is straight in the metatarsals. (I still have not converted to the terminology cattle folks use). I wish he had more rib and was not cut in the flank as much as he is. But you know what they say about wishing. 8)

He is an embryo calf. Fire Sweep has the flush mate to this calf. He too has flaws.

Here is another picture taken back in the winter that shows some of the muscle in the butt.

 

[Jake]

Appears to be "just a calf" Pretty straight on both front and rear and lacks power. Don't want to insult you Ron but I think he needs the knife

 

[Muddy]

Or a green rubber band.

 

[inyati13]

Appears to be "just a calf" Pretty straight on both front and rear and lacks power. Don't want to insult you Ron but I think he needs the knife

NO insult on my end. He has a genotype that has value. He is young, I will see how he responds to development after weaning. I acknowledge the points you made. Sounds like bias on my part but I think he will sell for more as breed stock than a feeder.

 

[Jake]

Appears to be "just a calf" Pretty straight on both front and rear and lacks power. Don't want to insult you Ron but I think he needs the knife

NO insult on my end. He has a genotype that has value. He is young, I will see how he responds to development after weaning. I acknowledge the points you made. Sounds like bias on my part but I think he will sell for more as breed stock than a feeder.

No doubt he will. Hope he develops well

 

[inyati13]

Jake:

Does Genotype trump Phenotype? Phenotype has no substance without genotype. It is the genotype which expresses itself in the nucleus of each spermatozoa. Therefore, a bull with value in its genotype trumps a bull with good phenotype and no genotype to back it up. Obviously, we all want both. Seedstock producers rarely cull as deeply as they could. I think the economics of that are obvious. The price matches the quality. We have some outstanding seedstock producers in this area. Lower tier bulls are sold compensorate with their phenotype and genotype. In summary, if I can develop a bull in order to market his genotype, it has more economic merit than marketing as a feeder. Particularly, at current feeder prices.

 

[Jake]

Jake:

Does Genotype trump Phenotype? Phenotype has no substance without genotype. It is the genotype which expresses itself in the nucleus of each spermatozoa. Therefore, a bull with value in its genotype trumps a bull with good phenotype and no genotype to back it up. Obviously, we all want both. Seedstock producers rarely cull as deeply as they could. I think the economics of that are obvious. The price matches the quality. We have some outstanding seedstock producers in this area. Lower tier bulls are sold compensorate with their phenotype and genotype. In summary, if I can develop a bull in order to market his genotype, it has more economic merit than marketing as a feeder. Particularly, at current feeder prices.

Phenotype has to trump genotype or there is no way to establish propetency. Just because ones genotype says he should
Be something doesn't make him that. You can look at my brother and I and will see two entirely different phenotypes out of the same genotype.

Genotype means nothing in cattle if it can't consistently produce the desired phenotype.

 

[inyati13]

Jake:

Elementary genetics. The genome of an organism is its entire collection of gene pairs. One from maternal, other paternal. The expression of those genes are exhibited in an organism's phenotype. However, the other genes are there. Those that are inferior may be expressed in the offspring. Thus a bull with a great phenotype may produce phenotypes inferior to his. On the other hand a superior geneotype has less odds of producing inferior offspring if the genotype is proven, i.e., Dream On. Better to have a great genotype than a great phenotype with inferior genes waiting to be expressed.

 

[Jake]

Understanding the genetics piece of it. How sure can you be of the superior genotype of this is the phenotype expressed?

 

[inyati13]

Understanding the genetics piece of it. How sure can you be of the superior genotype of this is the phenotype expressed?

Jake, the genotype cannot change in an organism. From conception to death. But during spermatogenisis the genes are being randomly resorted into each spermatozoan. Thus, bulls with great genotypes have been proven over time. None perhaps more so than the Simmental bull Dream On. Thus, his track record is the evidence that few inferior genes are hidden in his genome.

The point, if a bull calf has a good genotype that is proven and tested in his pedigree, there is value in that bull even though he has phenotypic flaws. To speak specifically to your question, it is the genotype that has a track record.

 

[Jake]

I understand that a genotype cannot change. I may not have the biology background you do but I do have an above average understanding.

None of which have been my point. Why proclaim the superior genotype of an animal when it is clear that he has inherited some undesirable characteristics in phenotype. Why would a person expect that he produce more like his sire than himself? Not every son of every good bull wins in the roulette game of genetics.

 

[inyati13]

I understand that a genotype cannot change. I may not have the biology background you do but I do have an above average understanding.

None of which have been my point. Why proclaim the superior genotype of an animal when it is clear that he has inherited some undesirable characteristics in phenotype. Why would a person expect that he produce more like his sire than himself? Not every son of every good bull wins in the roulette game of genetics.

Jake, there is not an organism on earth that does not harbor inferior genes controlling some trait or physiological function. The expression of undesirable traits does not invalidate the entire genome. Ideally, a bull exhibits both superior genotype and phenotype. The genotype is a sample of an animal's pedigree. In that respect, the genotype trumps the phenotype. Obviously, the undesirable traits are a negative. In relative strength, the genotype has more to do with offspring than phenotype.

Sorry, I cannot be more thorough. Doing this from my cell phone.

 

[FlyingLSimmentals]

He's still awful young and will change a lot as he gets older. Does look a bit straight in his back legs and a little shallow in the flank. I still think he could be a nice commercial bull. I can see some of the Dream On in his back line or top line.

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

Here is a picture of his flush brother. These are OLD school genetics, with the dam of the embryos a red cow that has over 100 calves registered, and many in well name bull pedigrees. So the genetics have value. The bull calves are still young, late October and November born. Our farm does not casterate until weaning. This red bull has potential, though he is not the most powerful bull I have raised.

rear shot

 

[Muddy]

That red calf looks WAY better than the sorry looking black.

 

[elkwc]

In the end the final decision whether to use the knife or not rests with the breeder. Regardless of genetics sometimes it is best to use it. But again I have seen average bulls if sound structurally out breed themselves. Before I would make a final statement about this calf would like to see him in person. My first impression is very similar to most expressed but again I haven't seen him in live flesh like a couple on this forum have.

 

[True Grit Farms]

Pasture blindness is almost like breeding for numbers. To me it looks like the numbers didn't add up to the total package.

These are OLD school genetics, with the dam of the embryos a red cow that has over 100 calves registered, and many in well name bull pedigrees. So the genetics have value. 

These two can, will or might already be registered. With some age they'll both look alright. But most commercial cattlemen sell calves. And considering who the dam of those bull calves are, what do you think a commercial cows calf would look like bred to either one of those bulls? Plus neither one of those bulls are homozygous black. But I'm sure they'll work for someone, and y'all will make more $money selling them as bulls than steers. And that's all that really matters to most folks.

 

[inyati13]

Pasture blindness is almost like breeding for numbers. To me it looks like the numbers didn't add up to the total package.

These are OLD school genetics, with the dam of the embryos a red cow that has over 100 calves registered, and many in well name bull pedigrees. So the genetics have value. 

These two can, will or might already be registered. With some age they'll both look alright. But most commercial cattlemen sell calves. And considering who the dam of those bull calves are, what do you think a commercial cows calf would look like bred to either one of those bulls? Plus neither one of those bulls are homozygous black. But I'm sure they'll work for someone, and y'all will make more $money selling them as bulls than steers. And that's all that really matters to most folks.

You are correct.