Line Breeding

[JHH]

Calf would probably be fine.I dont think I would keep the calf though. You opened up a can of worms here. :)

 

[alacattleman]

ive had one by accident ,, calf looked like a martian.. lived about two days, it could'nt tell if it was in alabama or china.. plus id be afraid of recessive genes, coming out of the wood work, to do it on purpose

 

[novaman]

I've done it before and surely it will happen again. Never had a problem with it, however; If there are recessive traits hidden in the wood work they will come out in a linebred animal.

 

[alacattleman]

I've done it before and surely it will happen again. Never had a problem with it, however; If there are recessive traits hidden in the wood work they will come out in a linebred animal.

my neighbor did it, not in the scientific way either. and the buzzards done the culling :cowboy:

 

[F350]

I wouldn't be afraid to do it, but it would have to be exceptional individuals from a line i wanted to keep. line breeding early can save you a lot of wasted time/effort by exposing the genetic dirt, if any exists.

 

[hillsdown]

About 4 years ago we AI'd heifers and a few didn't catch so instead of letting them get later and later in the season or buying a bull for just those few I let them in with the clean up bull (their sire). All calves turned out really nice except for one and the vet said she had arthrogryposis she died at 24 hours old. I posted pics of her on here before ,she had a cleft pallet, one normal ear one mouse ear and never was able to stand. I did report it to the association.

I would say go ahead and let him breed her, or if you do not want to chance it AI the heifer.

I do know a seed stock operations that will line breed that way and obviously it works for them as you can see it in their pedigree. Our clean up bull this year will be an uncle to my heifers (their sire and new bull are out of the same dam) so we will see how that works out.

I should add that we had 2 this year bred by their sire and they both had beautiful heifer calves, that are very healthy and normal.

 

[alacattleman]

About 4 years ago we AI'd heifers and a few didn't catch so instead of letting them get later and later in the season or buying a bull for just those few I let them in with the clean up bull (their sire). All calves turned out really nice except for one and the vet said she had arthrogryposis she died at 24 hours old. I posted pics of her on here before ,she had a cleft pallet, one normal ear one mouse ear and never was able to stand. I did report it to the association.

I would say go ahead and let him breed her, or if you do not want to chance it AI the heifer.

I do know a seed stock operations that will line breed that way and obviously it works for them as you can see it in their pedigree. Our clean up bull this year will be an uncle to my heifers (their sire and new bull are out of the same dam) so we will see how that works out.

I should add that we had 2 this year bred by their sire and they both had beautiful heifer calves, that are very healthy and normal.

mouse eared would better describe mine... i guess theres two kinda folks that have success inbreeding,, those that know what their doing.... and those that dont give a dam :cowboy:

 

[SRBeef]

Here is the best article I have found regarding line breeding:

http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM

note that it is NOT just breeding sire to his own calves for convenience.

Jim

 

[backhoeboogie]

I understand a father can breed his daughter with out problems. Is this correct? I have a heifer calf I want to keep. Thanks

Father to daughter has never been an issue with anything I own. Dad did it. Grandad did it. Prolly those before them. I thought everyone did it. Never had a problem holding a good heifer form the output. Got several in the herd now. Nice cows. Never seen the issues others are describing. Never seen one problem from the match.

 

[plumber_greg]

I gotta' agree with Jim, there is a huge difference between linebreeding for a specific purpose and just doin' it for convenience. gs

 

[djinwa]

Here's a post that I recall - you might want to read the entire thread:

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=57931&p=675261&hilit=pathologist+veterinary#p675261

I'm a food-animal veterinarian/veterinary pathologist. I know more than a little bit about genetics, genetic defects, inbreeding suppression, etc., - so I'm aware that if an undesirable gene is present, breeding closely-related individuals will increase the likelihood that it will be expressed - but at the same time, inbreeding/linebreeding can be used to concentrate the genes that code for desirable traits. It's how ALL of the breeds we now know were originally developed.

In the vast majority of instances, whether you're a commercial or purebred operation, there's little downside to breeding a bull back to his daughters - if you like the bull and the traits you selected him for, and he's passed them on to his daughters, you're just maximizing those desirables by practicing some in-herd inbreeding. Really, outside of the possibility of recessive defects, the only significant downside is from narrow-minded people who might look at the pedigree and get their panties in a wad about (gasp!) 'inbreeding', and shy away from what you've produced.
If you look at pedigrees for many bulls in many breed associations, you'll see specific animals or family lines appearing time after time. How many Angus bulls have EXT, 6807, Scotch Cap, etc. multiple times in their ancestry? How about 600U, Black Mick, Black Irish Kansas, Siegfried, Doubletime and now, Dream On, etc., in the Simmental breed?

I think it's CRAZY for a small commercial beef producer with just a few cows who may only need one bull at a time, to be buying a new bull every two years - you're not 'getting your money's worth' out of that bull purchase, and you don't really know for sure what you have(or had) before you get rid of him. If he's good, he's worth breeding back to his daughters; if he's not, then put some wheels under him and bring in something different.

 

[backhoeboogie]

I guess I will always view line breeding and inbreeding as two completely and opposite things. One is an proven methodology with benefit and improvement. The other is a train wreck.

 

[MF135]

I've done it before and surely it will happen again. Never had a problem with it, however; If there are recessive traits hidden in the wood work they will come out in a linebred animal.

I've never had a problem w/ it either. I think the topic of inbreeding is more "taboo" than it is impractical.

 

[novatech]

Line breeding has a purpose. The purpose is not for the convenience of not having to replace a bull. It should be used to increase the dominance of excellent traits. If all the desirable traits are not excellent then you also strengthen the poor traits. At the same time you bring the recessive genes to the surface. It is a process of culling out the poor ones and only keeping the close to perfect ones. This cannot be accomplished in small herds and amateurs. Line breeding can only produce an equal or lessor quality animal. Crossbreeding or out crossing can produce an equal or better quality animal than the original.

 

[Herefords.US]

Line breeding can only produce an equal or lessor quality animal.

WRONG!

George

 

[Aaron]

Line breeding can only produce an equal or lessor quality animal.

WRONG!

George

Okay people, pick your horse, sit back and watch. The race is on again! Should be a good fireworks display as well. :cowboy:

 

[SRBeef]

The "Linebreeding" in this link example of the development of Prospector 7558, http://www.witherspoonsherefords.com/WNHWEB11.HTM did not involve father daughter, but using the sires son to two half sisters, then breeding their son and daughter to produce Prospector 7558.

He was then bred to 110 daughters, as I take it as a genetic test, "without genetic problem".

It looks like the half brother/half sister matings were the best to develop "keepers" as I read this article.

The article makes a case for linebreeding like this creating better lines if only the best sons and daughters are used.

The father/daughter matings sound like more for terminal applications.

Jim

 

[backhoeboogie]

Jim, the father daughter thing doesn't bother me one iota and doesn't have to be terminal. Been seeing that work first hand for as long as I can remember (back to early the 60's with my grandaddy's bunch).

The half brother to half sis I would never try. :D I've been told cousins work great. Don't remember seeing it.

The definition of a line breeding is a line as I was taught. Bro to sis or cousins seems more like a curve.

 

[novatech]

Line breeding can only produce an equal or lessor quality animal.

WRONG!

George

How can you make something better that does not have the genetics to do so? You can only strengthen the genes that exist.
And no, I don't expect any fireworks. I'm here to learn. If I'm wrong I want to know it.

 

[Herefords.US]

Line breeding can only produce an equal or lessor quality animal.

WRONG!

George

How can you make something better that does not have the genetics to do so? You can only strengthen the genes that exist.
And no, I don't expect any fireworks. I'm here to learn. If I'm wrong I want to know it.

In a linebreeding program, all genes are not carried forward and some are replaced and completely lost, just as in any kind of breeding program. The key is selection. You want to concentrate and "lock-in" the desirable traits and completely eliminate those undesirable ones.

If you couldn't make linebred cattle "better", what would be the point?

I'd hate to tell the Holdens and Coopers that the generations (of people) that they've spent linebreeding Line 1 Hereford cattle was really for naught, because they couldn't even hope to have anything better than what they first started with all those years ago. They could only hope to reach the same level as what they started with or "less". After they stopped laughing, I'm sure they could provide plenty of examples where that premise was flawed, and through selection, they had made improvements in their herd in the areas that they were concentrating on making better.

A single example of improvement made through linebreeding would be Prospector 7558 in SRBeef's link. He was the product of a linebreeding exercise, started with a bunch of known dwarf carrier cattle, to prove you could breed that genetic defect out through selection and linebreeding.

So, in Prospector's case, I guess "less" would actually be better!

Some people mistakenly think if you are linebreeding to a certain individual, all you have available is the genes from that individual. Even in a closed herd, the reality is you have the genes of that individual plus all the genes carried forward from the other ancestors.

George