VanC
Well-known member
Around here if someone says Angus, it's assumed that it's black. If I bought an Angus bull or heifer sight unseen and a Red Angus showed up, I wouldn't be too happy about it.
Is this a good cross?
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VanC
Well-known member
Wewild":16ltwaj6 said:
I wouldn't either, but some do. I was just trying to make the point that if I expected one thing and got another, I wouldn't be too pleased. Many consider Angus and Red Angus the same thing. I don't.
VanC
Well-known member
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just that I don't consider them the same breed as some do. In fact, were I lucky enough to have cattle I would prefer red, whatever the breed.
Mr. Greenjeans
Well-known member
I guess it depends on a breeder's perspective. Financially speaking there is a difference between the two colors. Biologically speaking, if there is any difference, the difference is negligible. Once the butcher has done his business, there is no difference. In regard to the color issue, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter, it just doesn't matter.
Hugh Watson ARBITRARILY picked black as the Angus breed color in the early 1800's. Today the red's are slightly smaller than the blacks but this has more to do with breeder selections than genetics. The same distinction can also be made between black Angus with "northern genetics" and their "southern" black Angus counterparts.
I believe as posted earlier, we could peel two different apples and with a double-blind placebo controlled study, most of us COULD tell the difference between two different types of apples. I don't think we could peel the hides off different colored Angus, slap two T-bones on the grill and pull of the same feat by determining which one originally carried the recessive red color in the hair follicles. If you can -- YOU DA MAN! You should immediately quit the beef industry and join the carnival to display your true talents -- probably more money in it anyway.
Back to the original discussion, call it a Lim-Flex next time and no contrarian on this board will care to raise the color issue. By all means, introduce her to Mr. Gelbvieh and let's see some pictures 12 months from now. Just make sure it is a black Gelbvieh to slip all of the contrarians a "mickey".
For the rest of us, we can get happy in the same pair of panties we get upset in.
Regards to all,
Greenjeans
Hugh Watson ARBITRARILY picked black as the Angus breed color in the early 1800's. Today the red's are slightly smaller than the blacks but this has more to do with breeder selections than genetics. The same distinction can also be made between black Angus with "northern genetics" and their "southern" black Angus counterparts.
I believe as posted earlier, we could peel two different apples and with a double-blind placebo controlled study, most of us COULD tell the difference between two different types of apples. I don't think we could peel the hides off different colored Angus, slap two T-bones on the grill and pull of the same feat by determining which one originally carried the recessive red color in the hair follicles. If you can -- YOU DA MAN! You should immediately quit the beef industry and join the carnival to display your true talents -- probably more money in it anyway.
Back to the original discussion, call it a Lim-Flex next time and no contrarian on this board will care to raise the color issue. By all means, introduce her to Mr. Gelbvieh and let's see some pictures 12 months from now. Just make sure it is a black Gelbvieh to slip all of the contrarians a "mickey".
For the rest of us, we can get happy in the same pair of panties we get upset in.
Regards to all,
Greenjeans
fit2btied
Well-known member
Could this same argument be used in a friendly CAB discussion?Frankie":qkd77388 said:
:roll: Mr. Greenjeans":1u2uxanu said:
This has nothing to do with money. It has nothing to do with meat quality.
About 1945 a few breeders went around the country and ARBITRARILY selected, based on color, animals that couldn't be registered as Angus and started the Red Angus Association. So what's your point?
But we couldn't pass off Granny Smith (green) apples as Gala (red). Are you missing the point of this discussion or simply trying to change the subject?
Good ideas. Simply adding four key strokes would have saved me all this trouble. :lol:
[/quote]
You really shouldn't get your panties in a wad. It's just the internet.
Mr. Greenjeans
Well-known member
Frankie,
I have to agree with the spirit of your post. In reading people's opinions, I look for absolution and an trying to avoid accountability. I am simply here to gain information -- not looking for emotional currency in "being right". All statements were merely rhetorical but it appears you took exception to some.
e.g. If it "has nothing to do with money and nothing to do with meat quality" -- it has nothing to do with me and my efforts in beef production.
e.g. the apple comments -- yeah I guess I missed "the point". I guess for me it's hard to keep up with fruit talk when apparently I'm half vegetable. My point was simply hide color has no inherent value or connection with quality, only current market-driven value.
e.g. "But we couldn't pass off Granny Smith (green) apples as Gala (red). Are you missing the point of this discussion or simply trying to change the subject?" -- Frankie
My actual point was yes you are right about the apples, but this doesn't correlate to differences to be detected in the meat quality of Black vs. Red Angus. Colors do matter with apples -- Colors do not matter with Angus meat quality.
Of utmost importance is my honest yet anonymous opinion that Lim-Flex and Gelbvieh would make a great terminal product since that was the original posted inquiry.
I truly think the Red Angus breeders have it right. You can get in cheaper with reds and produce the same quality product as if it were black.
Consider this: Would a commercial producer be cheating the order buyer or considered dishonest to have a herd of unregistered Red Angus commercial cows and put a Black Angus Sire on them and let the black offspring be sold through the sale barn "across the scales" as assumed Black Angus commercial calves?
I unload my trailer and rely on caveat emptor and our great capitalistic economic system every time.
Same great product while in the color they want while acqusition costs are less. MY POINT WAS an Angus is an Angus is an Angus unless you are in the business of wanting one color or the other.
Going one step further is combining black color with heterosis as I assume you are well aware. I say give the buyers what they want -- a black british-continental cross. If anyone asks if it has Angus say heck yeah even if its mother is red.
No "wadding of panties" here -- only used the "we" to protect the innocent and easily targeted while still being all-inclusive.
Like this one: If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that barks is the one that got hit. (Frankie you are not a dog -- I repeat -- not a dog!) :cboy:
Mr. Greenjeans
I have to agree with the spirit of your post. In reading people's opinions, I look for absolution and an trying to avoid accountability. I am simply here to gain information -- not looking for emotional currency in "being right". All statements were merely rhetorical but it appears you took exception to some.
e.g. If it "has nothing to do with money and nothing to do with meat quality" -- it has nothing to do with me and my efforts in beef production.
e.g. the apple comments -- yeah I guess I missed "the point". I guess for me it's hard to keep up with fruit talk when apparently I'm half vegetable. My point was simply hide color has no inherent value or connection with quality, only current market-driven value.
e.g. "But we couldn't pass off Granny Smith (green) apples as Gala (red). Are you missing the point of this discussion or simply trying to change the subject?" -- Frankie
My actual point was yes you are right about the apples, but this doesn't correlate to differences to be detected in the meat quality of Black vs. Red Angus. Colors do matter with apples -- Colors do not matter with Angus meat quality.
Of utmost importance is my honest yet anonymous opinion that Lim-Flex and Gelbvieh would make a great terminal product since that was the original posted inquiry.
I truly think the Red Angus breeders have it right. You can get in cheaper with reds and produce the same quality product as if it were black.
Consider this: Would a commercial producer be cheating the order buyer or considered dishonest to have a herd of unregistered Red Angus commercial cows and put a Black Angus Sire on them and let the black offspring be sold through the sale barn "across the scales" as assumed Black Angus commercial calves?
I unload my trailer and rely on caveat emptor and our great capitalistic economic system every time.
Same great product while in the color they want while acqusition costs are less. MY POINT WAS an Angus is an Angus is an Angus unless you are in the business of wanting one color or the other.
Going one step further is combining black color with heterosis as I assume you are well aware. I say give the buyers what they want -- a black british-continental cross. If anyone asks if it has Angus say heck yeah even if its mother is red.
No "wadding of panties" here -- only used the "we" to protect the innocent and easily targeted while still being all-inclusive.
Like this one: If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one that barks is the one that got hit. (Frankie you are not a dog -- I repeat -- not a dog!) :cboy:
Mr. Greenjeans
suscofa
Well-known member
Perhaps I should bring a linguist and a lawyer on here to help with my future posts. I said 1/2 Angus and 1/2 limi what I should have said for all the gnat strainers is black cow of mostly Angus genetics bred to a registered limi resulting in a good looking red cross breed. Pondering then a breeding union with a gelbviev bull. ce epd 102. thanks.
Mr. Greenjeans
Well-known member
Exactly suscofa, my sentiments exactly.
I hope my longwindedness might of helped to get the thread back to your original post. I have no problem with how you originally worded it.
Disregard hide color concerns and breed it to that Gelbvieh and post me a picture. I have been wondering about crossing the same breeds.
Mr. Greenjeans
I hope my longwindedness might of helped to get the thread back to your original post. I have no problem with how you originally worded it.
Disregard hide color concerns and breed it to that Gelbvieh and post me a picture. I have been wondering about crossing the same breeds.
Mr. Greenjeans
Mr. Greenjeans":pj0h416m said:
Mr Greenjeans
You want to be careful you are making way too much sense for this thread. I have read both your posts and could not agree more. My partner has been crossing GV on good commercial old style shorthorn cows and gettin some great calves. We just bought a RA bull to breed now to those crossbred heifers and are looking for excellant results. I am looking to buy some commercial RA heifers and after their first calf will AI them to either a GV or a RED Simental. The cross works great and that's what we are here for lbs on the hoof with the least amount of problems.
As far as the RA/ Angus question. Don't they call it CAB never heard of CBAB. If they are RA crossed with BA and they are blk you're not cheatin anybody. In fact you're being a heck of a lot more honest than a lot of breeders. And no I do not wish to ARGUE, If ya'll disagree I don't care.
Mr. Greenjeans
Well-known member
3waycross,
I strangely can agree with both sides of the arguments posted on this thread. In addition, like you suggest, it boils down to getting the most pounds packaged in a quality product. Sometimes when it comes to songs, I agree with the writers words but the music is lacking.
By the way, I have thought more about the darn apple subject conundrum.
Granny Smith vs. Gala is like Piedmontese vs. Angus.
Gala (unpolished) vs. Gala (polished) is like Red Angus vs. Black Angus.
Close your eyes and you won't know the difference.
Mr. Greenjeans (especially after eating all of those apples)
I strangely can agree with both sides of the arguments posted on this thread. In addition, like you suggest, it boils down to getting the most pounds packaged in a quality product. Sometimes when it comes to songs, I agree with the writers words but the music is lacking.
By the way, I have thought more about the darn apple subject conundrum.
Granny Smith vs. Gala is like Piedmontese vs. Angus.
Gala (unpolished) vs. Gala (polished) is like Red Angus vs. Black Angus.
Close your eyes and you won't know the difference.
Mr. Greenjeans (especially after eating all of those apples)
Red Bull Breeder
Well-known member
I didn't no that angus people got so fired up over the color. But if shes a real pretty red heifer i would be sure and breed her to a really pretty red bull like a red Gelbvich or a really pretty Fullblood Limi. that way nobody will be upset over the color.
auctionboy
Well-known member
Mr. Greenjeans 1
Frankie 0
Just because a breed organization wants to make up some rules doesn't make there point of view the word of God. If a black angus cow has a red calf and it isn't a red angus, but it isn't a black angus then someone is full of it. :tiphat:
Frankie 0
Just because a breed organization wants to make up some rules doesn't make there point of view the word of God. If a black angus cow has a red calf and it isn't a red angus, but it isn't a black angus then someone is full of it. :tiphat:
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Frankie":1e88d5cx said:suscofa":1e88d5cx said:
So does this mean you don't know if she's Angus? Or don't know Angus and Red Angus are two different breeds?
Or - does it mean that you don't PARTICULARLY care if we attempt to be specific in answering your question? You see - there could be several ways to "answer" your question regarding a "good cross. The very FIRST criteria to be considered is - - what do you really mean by the term "good"? You might be referring to good progeny insofar as RETAINING the heifers produced. Or - you might be referring to good progeny in regard to a PROFIT obtained from a feedlot operation. Words really DO mean things, and it is difficult to answer questions if we don't know specifically what the question is.
"Is this a good cross?" . . . . . For acquiring . .what?
Your "mating cross" in this instance may, in fact, be a "good" selection, but you must know what your expectations are, and WHY you are thinking of this particular breeding combination. Is "Red Color" the only factor in your mind?
Or - do you not PARTICULARLY care?
DOC HARRIS
Mr. Greenjeans
Well-known member
This may be one of the few incidences of being able to ask, with a broad stroke of the brush, whether or not the progeny would be superior due to "good crossing".
With all exceptions within each breed set aside -- Angus will provide good maternal and marbling characteristics while Limousin will provide excellent dressing percentages.
If you are looking for one breed that can retain moderate size compared to other continentals, Gelbvieh would fit the bill.
Gelbvieh would also offer one of the few "materminal" options through high milking and dressing yields through added muscling and further heterosis.
When someone asks whether it is a good cross or not, Frankie and DOC both have valid points in regard to specifics. In this instance, however, I believe the response should be yes irregardless of the reader being provided specifics in regard to future intentions for the offspring. All considerations should be covered with the breeds represented.
Different opinions are certainly welcome and valued. I am considering this cross myself.
Mr. Greenjeans
With all exceptions within each breed set aside -- Angus will provide good maternal and marbling characteristics while Limousin will provide excellent dressing percentages.
If you are looking for one breed that can retain moderate size compared to other continentals, Gelbvieh would fit the bill.
Gelbvieh would also offer one of the few "materminal" options through high milking and dressing yields through added muscling and further heterosis.
When someone asks whether it is a good cross or not, Frankie and DOC both have valid points in regard to specifics. In this instance, however, I believe the response should be yes irregardless of the reader being provided specifics in regard to future intentions for the offspring. All considerations should be covered with the breeds represented.
Different opinions are certainly welcome and valued. I am considering this cross myself.
Mr. Greenjeans
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
Mr. Greenjeans-
"Gelbvieh would also offer one of the few "materminal" options through high milking and dressing yields through added muscling and further heterosis." "MATERMINAL"! This is an excellent example of a term I would characterize as an "Idiomatic Phrase" - inasmuch as it has a meaning that is different from the combination of the literal meanings of the individual words - MATERNAL and TERMINAL. Well done, Mr. G! That defines the cross-matings of Angus, Limousin and Gelbvieh breeds and their Genetics better than any explanation I have seen on these posts! And I agree with you in principle and in fact.
Leachman Cattle of Colorado is having a sale tomorrow and Wednesday (March 25 & 26, 2008) whereby those very breed combinations, as well as others, exemplify the efficacy of multi-breed crossbreeding that I think is the answer to a majority of problems that many breeders are expressing currently. Click on this link, and see if you agree with me.
http://www.leachman.com
After the link appears, click on th left pane "LCoC Philosophies" - then click on "..to watch a Video of Profit" Strategies" in the right pane.
DOC HARRIS
"Gelbvieh would also offer one of the few "materminal" options through high milking and dressing yields through added muscling and further heterosis." "MATERMINAL"! This is an excellent example of a term I would characterize as an "Idiomatic Phrase" - inasmuch as it has a meaning that is different from the combination of the literal meanings of the individual words - MATERNAL and TERMINAL. Well done, Mr. G! That defines the cross-matings of Angus, Limousin and Gelbvieh breeds and their Genetics better than any explanation I have seen on these posts! And I agree with you in principle and in fact.
Leachman Cattle of Colorado is having a sale tomorrow and Wednesday (March 25 & 26, 2008) whereby those very breed combinations, as well as others, exemplify the efficacy of multi-breed crossbreeding that I think is the answer to a majority of problems that many breeders are expressing currently. Click on this link, and see if you agree with me.
http://www.leachman.com
After the link appears, click on th left pane "LCoC Philosophies" - then click on "..to watch a Video of Profit" Strategies" in the right pane.
DOC HARRIS
DOC HARRIS
Well-known member
I just added an additional comment to the above post regarding Leachman's site. Click on the "Philosophies" bar in the left pane index.
DOC HARRIS
DOC HARRIS
Hey DOC, not everone is going to be able to buy that top-line bull from leachman's a good cross for the coomon farmer would be one that you mentioned but some cattlemen don't have the same goals as you there just trying to make there's .In this case A gelbvieh bull would do them right and not take all there profit. thanks for your insight.
