Is more cattle always better?

[herofan]

Does more cattle always equal more profit, can a smaller heard sometimes be more profitable, or does it balance out?

I know several farmers around here who say you can only make money in cattle with volume. Some people I know have a hundred cow/calf operation, and act as though a person is only wasting their time having 15 or 20. Does anyone here agree?

On the other hand, a guy shared a story with me that is the opposite. He said he once had about 8-10 mother cows on his grandfather's farm. He got someone to cut the hay for half, and his half was always enough. He said it just didn't seem like a big deal to have 8-10 cows, but it was a nice check every year.

He then went out for a while and returned in later years with 30 cows. He didn't discuss numbers, but he said he felt like he actually had more money to play with with 10 cows than 30. He said his check was bigger, but a lot more expenses and time spent too. Does this make sense?

It seems like maybe there is a magic number according to one's resources, not just cows per acre, but other things as well. If a person fences off 150 acres, and has 1 cow, he's obviously not making a lot, but maybe he doesn't need 75-100 either; maybe 30 would be a nice number to make a few bucks and not have the weight of the world on his shoulders and bank account.

My situation is that I'm not trying to make a living with cattle. I consider any money I make with them as "extra cash." I don't take out loans based on their income, nor decide to borrow due to it, it's just extra money. Ok, with that said, if I feel like things are going smoothly with 17 cows, should I automatically assume that if I had 40 I would be much better off?

Does any of this make any sense, or have I been in the sun too long?

 

[Bigfoot]

I think the law of diminishing returns applies to your question. I ask my self am I maxing out the resources I have? If I'm not, I get it in gear.

 

[Hook]

There's a lot of ways of doing things and a lot of factors that determine the answer to your question. That's why you've heard different responses from your neighbors and friends in the past

 

[herofan]

There's a lot of ways of doing things and a lot of factors that determine the answer to your question. That's why you've heard different responses from your neighbors and friends in the past

True. My situation is that I have 130 acres paid for, with about half in pasture. I don't have a lot of equipment. I have a 45 horse tractor and some basic things like a disk, plow, bush hog, but no hay equipment, we hire that done.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

All I've ever heard is "ya can't make money in the cattle business" which makes me wonder why anybody does it.

 

[Hook]

Put pencil to paper, figure out your daily cost, how many pairs you could stock, any infrastructure upgrades, and see where your diminishing returns start. That should get you pointed in the right direction, but don't forget to figure for drought and sudden commodity cost increases. Fuel/corn/grain/hay etc.
I prefer to keep the inputs low both time and costs. To each their own

 

[Bigfoot]

I understand your question, and definatly see what your saying. I have hit the limit of total head, that I can run on my place. The next step would be smaller rotations, and use of warm season grasses. Maybe renting some ground close for silage is in the future. As I look for ways to increase my gross sales, I have to weigh that against the cost. It'd be a good guess that profit per cow would go down. Hopefully total profit would go up.

 

[herofan]

All I've ever heard is "ya can't make money in the cattle business" which makes me wonder why anybody does it.

I've wondered that myself. I wonder why people do half the jobs they do, because they claim they don't make anything with any of them. I suppose there are different ways of managing money than I do, which is the simple way. If I didn't make anything, that must mean I'm loosing, and if I kept loosing for very long, I'd be on the streets without any money.

 

[1982vett]

Does more cattle always equal more profit

nope

On the other hand, a guy shared a story with me that is the opposite. He said he once had about 8-10 mother cows on his grandfather's farm. He got someone to cut the hay for half, and his half was always enough. He said it just didn't seem like a big deal to have 8-10 cows, but it was a nice check every year.

He then went out for a while and returned in later years with 30 cows. He didn't discuss numbers, but he said he felt like he actually had more money to play with with 10 cows than 30. He said his check was bigger, but a lot more expenses and time spent too. Does this make sense?

Yep

My situation is that I'm not trying to make a living with cattle. I consider any money I make with them as "extra cash." I don't take out loans based on their income, nor decide to borrow due to it, it's just extra money. Ok, with that said, if I feel like things are going smoothly with 17 cows, should I automatically assume that if I had 40 I would be much better off?

Does any of this make any sense, or have I been in the sun too long?

Makes a lot of sense......maybe the sun has helped you here today.


The major controlling factor here is the weather...control it and you can maximize your efforts to push your land to maximum production. But with that comes more expense and more time inputs. As you said, you aren't going to make a living at it and as with me, I'm not going to get rich off cattle. So be content and explore my theory. Find that slot where you aren't taking more from the land than you are putting back. Be a good steward of the land and your animals. And as with any paycheck job...if you aren't enjoying what you are doing, it is WORK... I can tell you the greatest expense in squeezing every last green blade possible out of the ground for a cow to eat does have an enormous cost....it's called time. You have a lot of it when you are young but as the years start slipping away, time becomes a precious thing.

Small operation, big operation.........

 

[TexasBred]

Seen quite a few folks lose their azz and all the fixtures thinking "big was better". If you really keep up with every expense involved many times it's just a quicker trip to the "last dance". I can never justify it and don't want to.

 

[Shanghai]

1982vette

The major controlling factor here is the weather...control it and you can maximize your efforts to push your land to maximum production. But with that comes more expense and more time inputs. As you said, you aren't going to make a living at it and as with me, I'm not going to get rich off cattle. So be content and explore my theory. Find that slot where you aren't taking more from the land than you are putting back. Be a good steward of the land and your animals. And as with any paycheck job...if you aren't enjoying what you are doing, it is WORK... I can tell you the greatest expense in squeezing every last green blade possible out of the ground for a cow to eat does have an enormous cost....it's called time. You have a lot of it when you are young but as the years start slipping away, time becomes a precious thing.

Small operation, big operation.........

Good post Vette, very wise
I can't add to that, but my granddad was a cattleman and a good one.
I had the benefit of learning how he did things and the benefit of watching family show how not to do things and ruin everything he built.
I saw them stack more than 3 times the amount of cows on his place that it could handle. I saw them trying to grow hay, buy hay, feeding cotton seed hulls and starve a profit out of the cattle.
I saw what was a productive little ranch turned into a short grass/no grass mesquite choked pasture that couldn't support half of what it should.

As Vette said the weather is the biggest obstacle. In my part of the world keeping the grass ahead of the cows is #1 so when you have a dry spell you have a cushion. If you try to utilize 100% of your grass those dry spells will get you behind and you'll be playing catch up.
Abuse it and try and squeeze extra profit out of the land and the cattle, mother nature has a lesson for you.

Finding that balance is the tough part when you have years like 2011-2012 and then 2014
It seems it's feast or famine

 

[cowgirl8]

Started out with 160 acres and 30 cows and one bull... 35 years later, we've grown to 2600 acres and working back up to pre-drought 250 mother cows. Half our acreage is trees, but we have enough land to have more than enough land to take care of the amount of cows we have and enough to bale hay with extra reserve for droughts. Our operation has paid for our place in less than 30 years and we've only had employees scattered though the years most have been just my husband and I. Everything is paid for, land, equipment, college for our kids, so yes, more is better. You have to be smart in every move, a hard worker, and KISS is our motto..
I edited because i forget about the 100 acre hay field we added a few years ago...so its now 2600, just use to saying 2500...

 

[denvermartinfarms]

If you have 130 acres and about half in grass, you should try to run about 20 pair and a bull. If that's the land you have paid for, and it's not a important source of income for you that's what I would do.

I'm not sure if your really asking if you would be better with 40 cows and everything else the same as it is now, but if you had 40 cows you wouldn't have grass to support them, I'm thinking you know that though.

If you had a place that would handle 40 cows and you were only running 17, then yes, more cows would always be better. you can't make money on the ones you don't own, but you also can't make money on the ones you do own and shouldn't.

 

[Aaron]

Very simple. If you can't make a buck with 10 cows, you won't with 500. If you can, and you can maximize your resources, then you don't need to get very big to make decent money. But eventually, with size, you will hit a point in which the workload is too much, and then factoring in hired-help can really change your profit expectations for the worse.

 

[Tim/South]

It is easier and more simple to put up hay for 10 cows than it is for 40. I have a retired friend who is expanding his herd. Buying and hauling 150 rolls of hay just takes more time, effort and money than when he had 12 momma cows.
I have doubled my herd since I retired from my day job. I spend every weather window baling hay. I cut hay on leased fields. I have good equipment and am debt free. I have more effort in caring for 100 momma cows than I did with 45.
The check is bigger. Uncle Sam and I have met.
Life is more simple when a person flies under the radar.

 

[greybeard]

Just remember the old axiom..........Two can live as cheaply as one if one of ya doesn't eat.

 

[skyhightree1]

Depends on your personal operations and costs and how you run your place. I started out with a few cattle now i'm knocking on the door of triple digits. The cattle pay for any new land I buy and I can tell you I for sure am making more $ with greater quantities than what I started out with. I have always had tractors and equipment and keep my costs to a minimum when it comes to cattle. The most expense I would say I have with cattle is creep feed and that doesn't dent up my profit on selling them much. I rent land and that doesn't hurt it either. Now if I bought a new disc cutter and new baler that's gonna definitely take a big whack into profit.

 

[bigbull338]

you asked a q with alot of veriables.yes you used to could pay for a place with cattle.i should know because my dad did that.but fast farward 40yrs.land now cost a min of $1500 to $2000ac.cows used to cost $200 40yrs ago.now any kind of a cow good or bad will cost $1500 to $2000.so use a sharp pencile and see what you can do.i run cows win loose or draw.meaning if they make a profit great i can buy more cows or equipment.in the last 3 months weve cut the herd by 4 cows and 7 calves.checked the #s the other day and still 32 heifer calves and 12 bull calves.plus some are getting ready to calve.the bull calves will sell after the 1st of the year.unless i decide to try to buy more cows in dec and sell some early.we bale our own hay.so yes we are making money.

 

[Jake]

Economy of Scale and spreading fixed costs across more head become a big deal. Equipment wise we could run another 200 cows, don't have the land to do it at this point. Like somebody else said if you can make money on a few you won't on a bunch.

 

[Jessica06]

I would add that one of the perks of doing things on a larger scale is that you can save money by buying in bulk. Larger sizes of vaccines and drugs are always a little, and usually a lot cheaper per head, and buying feed in bulk obviously has it's advantages. Little things like that add up fairly quickly.