Is a necropsy recommend?

[DaveM]

I just pulled a dead calf from a second calf registered Hereford cow. I have been watching her real close since she bagged up a few days ago. This morning her pins were gone so I put her in the barn at around 7am. I went back and checked on her at noon. Her plug was on the stall floor with what seem d to be an enormous amount of fluid also on the floor. She was having contractions but no progress. I called vet but had to leave a message I have never reached inside a cow before but have read enough to know I needed to do something because of lack of progress. She continued to have contractions and after an hour passed with no progress I reached up in her and found one hind leg. I knew it was coming breech but didn't know what to do next. I called the vets office back and she told me to find that other hind leg and carefully pull the leg up in to the canal then pull the calf. So that's what I did.
I was able to pull the calf but it was dead. The umbilical cord was still attached but the calf'was covered in yellow matter. I think this is a bad sign. Should I have a necropsy done? I really want to know why the calf was born dead. Was being presented breech the ultimate cause because a leg hung up? I sure would like to prevent this going forward. The cow produced a real nice heifer calf last year. I used a different bull this year.....could the bull have anything to do with this?

 

[Lucky_P]

I don't think it's necessary. The yellow material is meconium - the first fecal material - suggesting that the calf was stressed, and had defecated in utero.

It's the rare cow that can actually deliver a true breech presentation (butt/tail first). And, since they don't effectively engage the cervix, dilatation is often less than complete, and the cows often don't put on a hard abdominal press - just kind of walk around with their tail up a bit, but never really 'get down to business'. As a result many breech calves will be dead when delivered.
I see lots of perinatal deaths in calves that I suspect were probably calves delivered in a posterior presentation - back legs first - some get here alive, but I suspect that quite a number of them die before the cows manage to get them out.

I pulled one out of one of our own cows yesterday - she was acting like she wanted to calve, watched her for a bit, her water broke... but 2 hrs later she had not calved. Drove her up to the barn and it was indeed a breech presentation. Got the legs pulled up and pulled the calf out backwards, easily - and thankfully, alive.

 

[TCRanch]

Sorry about the calf - been there & it sucks but at least you were able to save the cow. Well done! It's not the bull, it's Mother Nature and odds are it won't happen again with that cow.

 

[gizmom]

I sure hate you lost a calf, I agree with Lucky and TC not the cows fault and unfortunately the way it usually ends up. We have lost a few the same way but it hurts just as bad every time.

Gizmom

 

[jcarkie]

We have only had 1 breech in 10 yrs thank the Lord. But we lost our fair of calves for many reasons. It is not easy but the more you have the odds are you see unusual things. Had twisted uterus once cow went over 24 hours and the calf survived, she is 12 yrs old the age of her dam when that happened. Back in 2001 l had 6 cows and 1 bull, I dreamed of having 50 cows. Now we have 225 cows 1/2 calve in fall and 1/2 in spring 7 bulls. I never missed a calf being born now I hardly ever see them still they are up nursing. When you find one dead it makes you wonder, was it breach or something else could i have done something.

 

[DaveM]

Thank you all for the advice and for sharing similar situations. sounds like the consensus is dead calf due to breech presentation and I (inexperienced cow hand) should have started pulling sooner.

One more question, would it make sense to reach in and check presentation right off the bat or is there danger of screwing something else up? Thanks

 

[Lucky_P]

I don't check 'em right off... but if I know when they went into labor, if they're not showing me some evidence that they're making progress in an hour's time, two hours at most, I'm gonna check 'em - if I can get 'em up to the pen.

 

[JMJ Farms]

I don't check 'em right off... but if I know when they went into labor, if they're not showing me some evidence that they're making progress in an hour's time, two hours at most, I'm gonna check 'em - if I can get 'em up to the pen.

Lucky_P, I've got a question. I've calved 100s of cows. So far, I've had a really good success rate. I go by my gut feeling based on my experiences. Usually if something is wrong, I can "just tell something isn't quite right". But what is/are the clinical sign(s) of being in "actual labor"? Water sac? Contractions? Dilation? I don't even know how to check the last two.

I've pulled numerous calves over the last 15 years for myself and others. As I gain more experience, I've noticed that a lot more of them make it out alive these days than when I started. The reason I ask the above question is because I'm gonna calve a good many heifers next year and my experience with heifers is pretty limited and I'm a little apprehensive about screwing up because I wasn't looking for the right signs.

 

[Lucky_P]

We have breeding dates on almost all cows and restricted fall and spring breeding/calving seasons... so have a good idea when they're due; start watching them closely two weeks or so ahead of anticipated calving date - as they frequently come that much 'early'... even calves out of mature cows, bred to Braunvieh bulls, were coming as much as 10-14 days early this month.
Cows will usually isolate themselves, if they can. Apparent discomfort... tail switching, stretching, frequent lying down & getting up signal the onset. Once mucus plug dislodges,and water breaks,things should progress fairly rapidly - I want a cow to have done the deed in an hour... I'll give a heifer a little longer, but if she's bred to a proper calving-ease bull, it shouldn't take her much longer. I'll look in on them, or watch with binoculars, if they're a flighty sort, but sure like to see two front feet and a nose early on, indicating that things are going as they're supposed to.

 

[TCRanch]

We generally calve out our heifers in the barn so I can check them every couple hours. If I don't see feet within an hour after her water breaks, I put on the gloves. JMJ, if you can't easily get your hand in there she's either not dilated enough or too small to calve in the first place. If everything is in the right position I'll give her another hour before I pull unless she's making good progress.

 

[JMJ Farms]

Thanks Lucky and TC. That pretty much confirms what I thought. Once the water breaks it's game on. Until then, observe unless something's seems to be obviously wrong. I never thought I'd get this technical I the cow business because I was raised doing it the old school way, but I'm gonna have these heifers pelvic area checked and cull any that don't meet the grade to see if maybe that will prevent a few future problems before they ever arise. Thanks again.

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks Lucky and TC. That pretty much confirms what I thought. Once the water breaks it's game on. Until then, observe unless something's seems to be obviously wrong. I never thought I'd get this technical I the cow business because I was raised doing it the old school way, but I'm gonna have these heifers pelvic area checked and cull any that don't meet the grade to see if maybe that will prevent a few future problems before they ever arise. Thanks again.

That will most definitely help! But no guarantee. Our heifers are all pelvic measured but this year we had one with a calf that had a leg turned back (got it corrected, went ahead & pulled, heifer/calf fine) and another one had a freakishly huge calf that didn't turn out well at all. I don't think the neighbor's bull got in the pasture (this time!) & our bull never threw anything over 75 lbs; according to our vets, "it happens". But you're being proactive and ready so I commend you and wish you the best of luck!

 

[JMJ Farms]

Thanks TC. My goal in most all aspects of life has always been to do the very best I could possibly do, as close to perfect as possible, and USUALLY the end result would be pretty good. Kinda like school. If you aim for a 100 and screw up you will probably still manage a 70 or 80. If you aim for a 70 and screw up well that's not gonna work too well for ya! Lol.

And I wish you luck with your truck. I'd be fit to be tied if I had to be without my pickup for 3 days, much less 3 weeks!! I wish you the best.

 

[TCRanch]

Thanks TC. My goal in most all aspects of life has always been to do the very best I could possibly do, as close to perfect as possible, and USUALLY the end result would be pretty good. Kinda like school. If you aim for a 100 and screw up you will probably still manage a 70 or 80. If you aim for a 70 and screw up well that's not gonna work too well for ya! Lol.

And I wish you luck with your truck. I'd be fit to be tied if I had to be without my pickup for 3 days, much less 3 weeks!! I wish you the best.

Thank you! Who knew this would turn into such a nightmare?