I have been around a small commercial operation cattle farm in central Kentucky my entire life. Here recently I have became interested in possibly starting a small purebred operation and selling seed stock. I don't have a lot of knowledge about raising purebred cattle. Are there any books targeted toward raising seed stock. Where is the best place to learn about collecting EPD's and understanding genetics. I am just at the beginning stage and trying to learn all I can so I don't jump into something blindly. Thanks in advance for your help.
Interested in pure bred cattle
- Thread starter fencepost
- Start date
Ol' 243
Well-known member
I'm not the guy for answers, but I'm gonna subscribe to this thread to hear the answers.
Best way is to talk to a few purebred breeders close by, go to a few sales, dont worry about buying until you get a little understanding of epds and pedigrees. Angus Hall of Fame has a book of the animals through the yrs, I don't have it but it looks interesting. Theres a lot of info at Angus.org. Google some of these big operations and read some of there stories.
You will get lots of replys here, mostly why you shouldn't, a little paperwork involved maybe 1 minute for each calf trough yearling for me, I think you have more marketing options with purebred, if they make the cut great if not you still have a good commercial calf, the other way you still just have a commercial calf
You will get lots of replys here, mostly why you shouldn't, a little paperwork involved maybe 1 minute for each calf trough yearling for me, I think you have more marketing options with purebred, if they make the cut great if not you still have a good commercial calf, the other way you still just have a commercial calf
TennesseeTuxedo
Well-known member
fencepost, go see C.R. Mears over in Greensburg, he'll get you started down the right path.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
IMO you most likely loose your butt.fencepost":1rawgjx4 said:
As a seed stock producer you are selling your name and you don't have one,
Secondly you are competing against the big boys unless you pick a niche breed.
My question is why I will shop your place for the next decade until I am not convinced you are not
A fly by night. You sell one bad animal in the first few years your name will be Mudd.
IMO that is a major problem today with Angus everyone thinking they are a seed stock producer
Because they are selling crappy cows with paper.
The seed stock producer does not drive the industry the commercial cattle man does.
I can't sell worthless paper I am selling pounds of beef to turn into valuable paper.
Ky hills
Well-known member
Caustic pretty much summed up my venture into the purebred world. I started out as a teen, with some registered Charolais. I sold some bulls and females locally. My biggest mistake was buying into the hype, I bought several heifers and cows that just didn't pan out. Then market prices went south, and demand dropped for non black cattle. I now have commercial cattle, and a few registered Angus and a Hereford for my own herd use, and sometimes have bull or two to sell.
I would advise anyone starting into purebred cattle to be cautious about purchases.
I would advise anyone starting into purebred cattle to be cautious about purchases.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
Caustic Burno":z6dqtt62 said:
The above is quoted. Because you need to read that twice.
I drove 3 hours to look at a brangus bull. I had high hopes. When I saw that thing I couldn't believe it was not a joke. The bull was pitiful. It hurt the guy's feelings that I didn't want that bull. Does anyone believe I will ever drive back to that "producers" farm? He was proud of trash, with papers.
This thing can go both ways for lots of reasons, you have to know your market, Charolais may not have the best market around here, not knocking them. Now if the market goes south is that because there registerd? I don't think so
C B
#1 not alot of folks, start with a name, unless its inherited.
#2 you don't have to have a niche breed, to compete just raise quality cattle, and they will come, even if you only have 1 to sell, and maybe get a better animal at a lower price, because your not paying for that prefix.
#3 see part of #2 not paying for prefix.
#4 your right if you don't stand behind your animals, your done, but as long as you do, folks will respect you for it.
#5 just because there small doesnt meen they have crappy cattle.
#6 the seedstock producer somewhat drives it, by producing the type and kind the commercial cattleman want, so to a point there both a necessity.
#6 exactly you can't sell that piece of paper to the feedlot, but some cattle that are backed by that piece of paper bring a premium.
All that said 2 sides to most everything cattle, the seedstock guy needs the commercial guy, the commercial guy needs the seedstock guy. If youd have all the smaller operations gone, the big would only get bigger. So I'm all for anyone going registered, more marketing options.
C B
#1 not alot of folks, start with a name, unless its inherited.
#2 you don't have to have a niche breed, to compete just raise quality cattle, and they will come, even if you only have 1 to sell, and maybe get a better animal at a lower price, because your not paying for that prefix.
#3 see part of #2 not paying for prefix.
#4 your right if you don't stand behind your animals, your done, but as long as you do, folks will respect you for it.
#5 just because there small doesnt meen they have crappy cattle.
#6 the seedstock producer somewhat drives it, by producing the type and kind the commercial cattleman want, so to a point there both a necessity.
#6 exactly you can't sell that piece of paper to the feedlot, but some cattle that are backed by that piece of paper bring a premium.
All that said 2 sides to most everything cattle, the seedstock guy needs the commercial guy, the commercial guy needs the seedstock guy. If youd have all the smaller operations gone, the big would only get bigger. So I'm all for anyone going registered, more marketing options.
backhoeboogie
Well-known member
bse":gkuxg166 said:
The big guys are throwing their weight around. You have to buy cows in groups. There's good and bad in each group. You have to take trash to get the good ones. Your choice is to buy the group or go home. I opted out. Won't be back there either.
M-5
Well-known member
Small purebred producers have a place in the market . I am not one and at this point don't really care to be one. I know a few folks that have a half dozen to a dozen PB cows and are able to sell the calves Bulls and heifers at a little above market value. What I see is they can and will be a little more patient and do not have a set time frame to get calves sold. Some times they may sell out the first week other times it might take a couple of months to get rid of them. as with anything you get what you put into it out of it.
TexasBred
Well-known member
When I had registered cattle everything sold as singles, was listed in the sale catalog with EPDs and pedigree and in most cases pictures.You bought one at a time. Most of the larger operations still sell this way.backhoeboogie":un4hez2n said:
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
I know how this game is played ran a registered herd for 25 years along with commercial.
Muddy
Well-known member
Just because few commercial guys needs seedstock guys, doesn't mean all commercial guys need them. A commercial bull or an unpapered bull is good as a registered bull. Just because it's registered, doesn't mean it's a quality animal.
Your exactly right Muddy and makes my point, not all seedstock guys need commercial guys.
And the other point because its a commercial bull doesnt meen it's great either. Not near the number of commercial bulls sold as registered.
But as that registered guy you have 2 options, commercial still only 1.
There's a place for both.
The guy that raises his own bulls and uses them, is ahead, commercial or registered.
And the other point because its a commercial bull doesnt meen it's great either. Not near the number of commercial bulls sold as registered.
But as that registered guy you have 2 options, commercial still only 1.
There's a place for both.
The guy that raises his own bulls and uses them, is ahead, commercial or registered.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
He is still trying to play a money game and 70 percent of his calf crop is still running across the scales where they can't compete with the hybrid vigor pounds.bse":dsxlaikx said:
That is just science.
I appreciate all of the help. Right now I am trying to do a lot of research to see if this is the right step for me. Hopefully I will discover it before I make a purchase if it is not for me. I figure I couldn't lose too bad as long as I started small and like BSE said I will still have good commercial calves if they don't sell as seed stock.
Muddy
Well-known member
In the end, the feedlots didn't give a fudge if the feeders are registered or not. If you want registered animals, more power to you. If they want to selling commercial cattle or selling unpapered bulls, more power to them.
Muddy exactly but why discourage anybody!!!!
C B I'm gonna use the numbers you throw out there, even though you can have hybrid vigor within a breed. But for this Im gonna give up 40lbs a calf to you, assuming all are born on the same day. Used Dickson sale yesterday.
Your 10, 733lb calves at$1.44 will bring $10,555.20
Now I'm giving up 40 lbs so mine are 693lbs only have 7( your 70%) they will bring $7519.05 at $1.55 Now I've got 3 bulls that I call at $2000 adding $6000 to my total making it. $13519.05 making me an extra $2963.85 so those little pieces of paper were worth an extra almost 3k to me all you can ever have with commercial across the scales is $10,555.20.
Not trying for either way, got nothing in it, I have both.
C B I'm gonna use the numbers you throw out there, even though you can have hybrid vigor within a breed. But for this Im gonna give up 40lbs a calf to you, assuming all are born on the same day. Used Dickson sale yesterday.
Your 10, 733lb calves at$1.44 will bring $10,555.20
Now I'm giving up 40 lbs so mine are 693lbs only have 7( your 70%) they will bring $7519.05 at $1.55 Now I've got 3 bulls that I call at $2000 adding $6000 to my total making it. $13519.05 making me an extra $2963.85 so those little pieces of paper were worth an extra almost 3k to me all you can ever have with commercial across the scales is $10,555.20.
Not trying for either way, got nothing in it, I have both.
Caustic Burno
Well-known member
That is only if your bulls are worth a crap it takes years to build a quality seed stock operation.bse":3gp6wxa9 said:
And the Commercial cow man has to be willing to take a chance on a newbie .
Heck of a lot of difference an affluent person playing this game a small timer trying to play big league ball. I have been out of the seed stock business since 2011 and I still get calls for bulls.
I refer those people to breeders that ran as good as mine and the one breeder I thought were better than mine. I dam sure not referring them to a person that in most likely hood will fold under the startup losses.
I guess I am going to go the more positive route on this subject and say if you are interested in going the registered purebred route the best thing you can do is find a mentor willing to answer your questions and help get you pointed in the right direction to get you started. And when you get to that point where you are ready to dive into it I think the best thing to do is go buy a group of females from the same operation or possibly 2 as long as they are similar in breeding and management practices to get you started. Having a fairly uniform set of females from the start can help you get established because you will be essentially starting off with a similar gene pool and the progeny will more than likely be more uniform looking too. Piecing together your initial herd with a couple females from here or there is not ideal.
Obviously it is going to take some time and money to establish a good reputation but if you are serious about it and care about putting in the time and research to breed good purebreds I don't see why anyone should tell you it's a waste of time and money if that is truely something you think you have a passion for trying out. I'll agree that as a purebred seedstock producer you can't just take everything you breed and sell it at a premium, people still know good cattle from bad and 1 bad sale can do harm to reputation. Especially when it comes to bulls it's better to error on the side of caution and if you have any doubts there is nothing wrong cutting a bull you think isn't going to be a good reputation of what you are breeding even if you think you could make a few extra bucks by leaving him intact and selling as a bull.
Obviously it is going to take some time and money to establish a good reputation but if you are serious about it and care about putting in the time and research to breed good purebreds I don't see why anyone should tell you it's a waste of time and money if that is truely something you think you have a passion for trying out. I'll agree that as a purebred seedstock producer you can't just take everything you breed and sell it at a premium, people still know good cattle from bad and 1 bad sale can do harm to reputation. Especially when it comes to bulls it's better to error on the side of caution and if you have any doubts there is nothing wrong cutting a bull you think isn't going to be a good reputation of what you are breeding even if you think you could make a few extra bucks by leaving him intact and selling as a bull.
