I Know I Shouldn't Worry, BUT......

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I luv herfrds

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We lost our first calf out of our new Churchill bull yesterday.
Calf was missing it's right ear and it's right eye. Came around a month early. Looked like it had died a couple of days before. It was a heifer calf out of a 5 yo cow.

Went out to roll out a straw bale to the bred cows due to the extreme wind chill and saw a different cow bagging up. She didn't look pregnant either. We checked the pasture we have them in and no dead calf.
Yes Dun I am on edge and I know I shouldn't worry, but I just can't help myself.

After losing 5 calves to being born either breech or backwards last year just do not want to lose any more, especially my 2 AI cows.

Just keeping my fingers crossed.
 
Ouch, I would be very worried as well. Did you get the calf posted ?

Good luck with everything and keep us posted.
 
Your concern is understandable. I'd be a bit gun-shy too. Hopefully this one calf will be the only loss you have this season.

Here's hoping the rest come easily, unassisted and alive & kicking.

Katherine
 
Good luck with the rest...try not to worry it won't change anything!! Hope the rest come out just fine and you don't pull your hair out or anything like that :p
 
No dead calf today. Whew!

HD called and talked to vet about the calf and he said it was possible one of those things that we may never know what happened. Whether it was a fluke, poison weeds, or genetic no way to truly know. He did say if we do have another one we will be drawing blood on the whole herd to check for any disease and then get the bulls checked genetically.

Cow was looking sick afterwards, but was looking much better today. Still got my eye on that other cow though.
 
I luv herfrds":279tlume said:
We lost our first calf out of our new Churchill bull yesterday.
Calf was missing it's right ear and it's right eye. Came around a month early. Looked like it had died a couple of days before. It was a heifer calf out of a 5 yo cow.

Went out to roll out a straw bale to the bred cows due to the extreme wind chill and saw a different cow bagging up. She didn't look pregnant either. We checked the pasture we have them in and no dead calf.
Yes Dun I am on edge and I know I shouldn't worry, but I just can't help myself.

After losing 5 calves to being born either breech or backwards last year just do not want to lose any more, especially my 2 AI cows.

Just keeping my fingers crossed.

I hate to be a naysayer but last year's "5 calves born breech or backwards" (unless you have a herd of thousands) sounds like a statistical outlier to me. As does your "first" calf being stillborn & deformed....

These are just not statistically very likely things to happen... I would start thinking about and testing for other possible causes. Just my engineer's thinking. I would say good luck but luck is not appropriate here. Maybe best wishes? I would start looking for causes asap. I am not experienced or trained enough to have any idea what could cause breech births but there has to be something. I do know statistics however and these just sound non-random. Jim
 
Found another dead calf this morning. :( :(
Out of a first year heifer. another heifer calf. This one looked fine no deformities. The teeth had not broken through the gum yet so it was a tiny preemie.

calling the vet to see about doing some blood tests on our herd and see if we can get to the bottom of this.
 
Not to sound like a broken record but I would have them checked for lepto . Also cold and snowy weather might be stressing them too much :???: or falls on ice although that wouldn't cause a birth defaect.Hope you find a cure.We all share your frustration.
 
FYI
Most of the time if you just send blood, tissue, or a dead calf to the University asking "whats wrong here?," the results will come back "inconclusive". If you try to narrow the search down for them, to 1 or 2 possabilities, they might be better able to come up with a probable Yes or No answer. I wish you a quick, simple solution. @
 
I luv herfrds":78bi0n5m said:
Found another dead calf this morning. :( :(
Out of a first year heifer. another heifer calf. This one looked fine no deformities. The teeth had not broken through the gum yet so it was a tiny preemie.

calling the vet to see about doing some blood tests on our herd and see if we can get to the bottom of this.

Wow - that blows - especially after last year.
 
I presume your cows are on a vaccination program for BVD, IBR and PI3, at the very least?? If so could be just bad luck, as far as that goes. Sucks to have 2 but sometimes these things just happen. But, I don't disagree with you sending them off to try and find out what the problem is. When are your cows due to calve?
 
Yes Randi we do. It also includes Lepto and pasterella pnuemonia. We normally give them their shots in the spring when they are all open. At least 3 weeks before turning the bulls out.
The cows just got their Scour Bos 9 at the end of January. Yearlings got their Bangs at the same time.

going to do the herd blood test this spring. We just do not want to add any more stress to the herd with all of this weather.
 
Audie & all,
This is gonna be fairly lengthy, so put your reading glasses on - or get ready scroll past it.

I do those diagnostic workups on aborted/stillborn calves all the time - and as a beef producer and former food-animal practitioner, they used to frustrate me. A lot. We arrive at a definitive answer as to the cause of abortion/death in less than 25% of the cases. Lots of those 'inconclusive' reports.
After doing them for the last 20 years, though, I've justified it with myself that an awful lot of the ones we see are NOT due to infectious or contagious causes. We have no problem identifying those IBR, BVD, Lepto, Neospora, and nitrate-toxicity abortions - and I've come to the point that I'm mainly doing these to rule in/out the infectious problems that the producer and veterinarian can actually do something about.
Most of the abortion/stillbirth cases I see are just a sporadic single animal, with no history of others in the herd aborting. I can count on one hand(and have some fingers left over) the number of true 'abortion storms' I've been involved with in nearly 30 years of veterinary medicine and diagnostics - but if you read the textbooks, you'd think an abortion storm was just around every corner.

Many times, the diagnosticians at the lab are 'working with their hands tied behind their back' in a way.
We often get the aborted or stillborn calf, but rarely get placenta(afterbirth) to examine. I know, I know - sometimes it's not available: the dogs/coyotes or the cow already ate it, or it's still in the cow as she disappears over the top of the next hill, or the farmhand pitched it in the manure pit, etc.
But in close to 50% of the cases where I get placenta to look at, I find a lesion or isolate a specific pathogen - from the placenta; but there's NOTHING - zero, zip, nada - abnormal in the calf or any of its tissues. Unfortunately, I only receive placenta in *maybe* 10% of the cases I work up. I tell my veterinary clients and producers - If you can only send the calf or the placenta, send me the placenta! I'm more likely to find the answer there than in the calf.

Paired serum samples from the dam - one at the time of the abortion, one 2-3 weeks later - can also help tremendously in ruling in/out infectious causes - antibody titers to IBR, Lepto, etc., will be rising or decreasing between the initial and convalescent samples, depending upon whath agent may have caused the abortion. But we rarely get serum samples, and even more rarely do we get that important 'convalescent' sample so we can see if antibody levels are going up, down, or are unchanged. A single sample doesn't tell us much, other than that the cow has been exposed to a specific agent at one point in time - could be natural exposure, or could be due to vaccination.

We know that a lot of human miscarriages are due to women having an 'incompetent cervix' - their cervix won't or can't stay closed, causing premature delivery or allowing bacterial from the vagina to gain access to the fetus and placenta. While cows don't walk upright on their hind legs like people do, I wonder how many cows might have an incompetent cervix, which allows the normal bacteria from the vagina to get through and infect the placenta.
Additionally, there is some degree of immunosuppression at the maternal-placental interface; if not, the cow's immune system would reject that 'foreign object'. I can't help but think that this immunosuppression at that level also inhibits the cow's ability to fight off local infections of the placenta that can cause abortion.

For the most part, we don't know how many of these aborted/stillborn calves have potentially lethal genetic defects - whether they are a heritable defect or just an 'accident'. About 20 years ago, researchers at U.of Saskatchewan undertook a study to look at this aspect. They took third-trimester fetuses that had been aborted, but not autolyzed, and cultured fibroblasts(connective tissue cells) from the pericardial sac, then karyotyped them, like they do with cells taken by amniocentesis or chorionic villus sampling in women looking for Down's Syndrome, etc., in human fetuses. In about 11% of those bovine fetuses sampled, there were genetic abnormalities that *might* have contributed to fetal death and abortion. Since this study was done on nice, fresh, third-trimester fetuses, I have to wonder how many of those earlier ones, or the ones that are retained in utero and are sorta rotten by the time the cow expels them might be genetically abnormal. It seems that in some cases, abortion is Mother Nature's way of getting rid of an unfit or unsurvivable fetus.

Then, there are always the stillbirth/neonatal death cases - full-term calves that the owner finds dead. Some of those have swollen tongues/heads, and you KNOW that they had a prolonged difficult delivery, and may have been dead or so weak and hypoxic by the time the cow got 'em out that they just didn't make it. Then there are those that make me think they were probably a posterior presentation(backwards) and the calf 'drowned' after his umbilical cord got crimped off in the pelvic canal and before the cow managed to get him all the way out. And then, you also have to consider prevailing weather conditions as a contributing factor, especially if the calf was born to a heifer - some of 'em just don't know what to do with that calf to get him cleaned up, dried off, and on his feet nursing.

Hope this gives you a new perspective on why results from your diagnostic lab may be 'Inconclusive' - and hopefully will also give you some tips on what samples to make sure are collected and submitted for examination so that our chances are improved in being able to tell you why that calf was aborted.
 
Lucky P

I hope you don't think we are on different pages here. I just sent in the short, laymans version of my experience; If you ask the lab is x or y possable or probable, they can run that test. If you have no idea what they should look for, they don't either.
Thats why you made it thru vet school and I am just a dumb "dirt farmer." @ :D
 
Got a call from the vet tonight. The tests are all almost done, but what was found has just stunned us.

IBR.

Where the BE NICE did that come from. Also found out that the vaccine we were using the IBR part was not working. Oh be nice! It has been taken off of the market. Too little to late! :mad:
Going with a different vaccine this spring.

That other cow I was wondering about we are going to run her in tomorrow and preg her. I think she lost her calf and the coyotes came in and got it.

I am really PO'd right now.
 

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