I Don't Know

[inyati13]

If I were to rewrite the AI instructions, I would place less emphasis on the term standing heat. Why?

Consider the following example. Wednesday morning, I saw a fresh string of mucus on the tail of a first calf heifer, Blaze. It was day 17 since I bred her the first time. I was concerned seeing the mucus so I watched her all day. There was no primary or secondary signs of estrus until Wednesday at dusk. I was passing a hot summer evening watching the group Blaze was in. She walked over to a cow and laid her head on the cow’s back and jumped her. They stood head to tail for several minutes. Then the cow mounted Blaze. They continued this until it was too dark to see. So I was sure one of these cows was in heat.

Early Thursday, I went back to the group. Blaze was still active. She was mounting other cows and even 4 month old calves. But I never saw a behavior that I would say, "There it is. That is the standing heat."

I bred her. The cervix was firm compared to the first service. I watched her constantly for the next 6 hours. Most of the ensuing 6 hours was hot. I saw her stand while being mounted by Star one time. Most of the time she was mounting the others. Concerned that I was not sure where in the cycle she was, I bred her again at mid afternoon. I thought that her cervix was a bit more firm. I could feel the form of the cervix and the tip of the gun when I deposited a second straw.

I continued to watch her. The group was laying in the shade of the hay barn most of the day. On occasion, she would get up and go to another cow laying down and lick their back or act like she was going to mount. The cow laying would get up and refuse the attention.

This is an example. I have observed this scenario several times this breeding season. Few people who AI have the opportunity to spend all day with a cow and make observations. I have done that a number of times. I am convinced that standing heat is not as defined as the text book on AI makes it out to be. 9 out of 10 times, I cannot define a point in their estrus behavior that I can clearly define as "standing heat". The manual should say:

When doing heat detection, look for the cow or heifer to stand. However, a "standing heat" is not always a clearly definable behavior. If the cow is observed to be in estrus, at some point into the estrus behavior a decision to breed has to be made.

 

[dun]

Granted I don't have all the experience you have, but I have rarely seen a cow not in standing heat when she was. Hot weather gnerally causes poorer heat expresssion. The cows individual behaviour is only a sign to keep an eye on her. It takes another cow/steer to want to mount her. That's why early spring breeding for us is the preferred breeding season.

 

[inyati13]

Granted I don't have all the experience you have, but I have rarely seen a cow not in standing heat when she was. Hot weather gnerally causes poorer heat expresssion. The cows individual behaviour is only a sign to keep an eye on her. It takes another cow/steer to want to mount her. That's why early spring breeding for us is the preferred breeding season.

Those are good points. But it all gets confusing. For example, she stands one moment and then for the next hour she is jumping. When I make that observation, I begin to question if the moment she was standing was the "standing heat" that you base your timetable on.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Your bull must really hate you.

 

[dun]

Standing, as in standing heat isn't a short momentary thing. It also isn;t usually a one shot deal. Standing to be ridden/mounted is just that, It's long enough for a bull to complete the breeding process. Her mounting the others is just one aspect of her hormones being all stirred up.

 

[NWMoAngus]

In heifers the standing heat phase often is extended beyond that of mature cows. Many times I have gathered the individuals for servicing, according to the AM/PM rule only to find several still standing or showing aggressive estrus activity 12 hours later.

 

[inyati13]

Standing, as in standing heat isn't a short momentary thing. It also isn;t usually a one shot deal. Standing to be ridden/mounted is just that, It's long enough for a bull to complete the breeding process. Her mounting the others is just one aspect of her hormones being all stirred up.

That is where I have trouble. I observe standing but I start debating in my head if it was the bonafided "standing heat". It is not because I am missing it. Like I said, most people on here have day jobs. I have the opportunity to watch a cow all day if I want to.

dun: My point is this, I have watched a cow all day and never seen what you are describing as a standing heat. Now, at night maybe it is occurring and I am missing it.

Now what do you do??? That is the question. Do you just ignore her and miss the entire cycle? Of course not. My point is that at some point you got to decide to breed her even if she did not have a well defined standing heat.

PS: I do see some have a clear standing heat, but I see just as many that don't. Or maybe they have it at night and I don't see it.

 

[chippie]

sometimes a cow will jump another after being bred because of the hormone change when the fertilized egg implants.
Do you breed 12 hours after you observe the cows jumping on each other?

 

[inyati13]

sometimes a cow will jump another after being bred because of the hormone change when the fertilized egg implants.
Do you breed 12 hours after you observe the cows jumping on each other?

Yes. If I don't pick up a well defined "standing heat". I will breed on the AM/PM rule. BTW: It has worked so I am not complaining. Last December, I stuck 5 out of 7 on the first attempt.

 

[inyati13]

In heifers the standing heat phase often is extended beyond that of mature cows. Many times I have gathered the individuals for servicing, according to the AM/PM rule only to find several still standing or showing aggressive estrus activity 12 hours later.

Yes. The group I just finished and the heifer I described above is the only one I had to repeat. All are first time calvers so in some sense still heifers. The heifer I described was in estrus for 36 hours.

 

[TexasBred]

Inyati I think you are constantly second guessing yourself. Thinking about it too much. You need to go to town for a couple of days and get away from those cattle. :lol2: :lol2:

 

[inyati13]

Inyati I think you are constantly second guessing yourself. Thinking about it too much. You need to go to town for a couple of days and get away from those cattle. :lol2: :lol2:

Wise advice. Don't everyone know I am obsessive? I really do have a bad obsessive streak. :D

 

[dun]

Now what do you do??? That is the question. Do you just ignore her and miss the entire cycle? Of course not. My point is that at some point you got to decide to breed her even if she did not have a well defined standing heat.

Standing heat is obvious. I seldom watch for more then a half hour morning or night. When I do watch I don;t mingle with them, I'm usually a pasture away or at least a distance away so they aren;t reacting to my being there. I wonder if you don;t spend TOO much time with them..They know you aren;t a cow so you beinf mingled with them will have some reaction even if you don;t recognize it as such.
The heifer this year is the first one we have had in many years that we didn;t catch in heat. Even after the GnRH and lute I never caught her. 2 days later the bull sure did. So either the GnRH didn;t work and it was her normal cycle or she just didn;t respond to it.

 

[wbvs58]

Ron I think there is a chance she could be pregnant and that could explain the abnormal behaviour, like she sort of wants to be on heat but the hormones aren't quiet there. The other thing with the cervix being very toned compared to the first insemination makes me a bit suspicious. I can't say I have much experience of palpating early pregnant cows but I have done a few mares at 21 days and the whole uterus and cervix tends to feel very toned like a hose.
Ken

 

[Fire Sweep Ranch]

We have a tougher time in the summer with heat detection than in the spring and winter. They just do not want to be active during the day. I heat check three times a day this time of year, since I have summers off. I almost never see activity during the middle of the day. I have had some that were acting different, and I will make a nighttime visit, like after 10 PM, and find them active then.
You have to look at all the signs. We had one of the show heifers pass a little mucous at our regional show when we were in KS. It was about 19 days post her last breeding date. I watched her closely, but being tied all day you do not see much. The mucous was not quite stringy like ovulatory slime. My gut said it was from the stress of the show... The kids told me that night they were jumping each other when they let the 5 heifers lose in the arena, but no one stood. I was not there, but was second guessing myself. Well, the vet was out today to do a BSE on a bull, so I had that heifer ultra sounded, since we are going to another show and she had passed over her cycle earlier this week. She would be 28 days. Vet called her bred, so I was happy.
Like you Ron, I tend to over analyze and fret. Go with your gut, it is usually right.

 

[inyati13]

Ken: This heifer had her calf on 3/20/14. I caught her first estrus on 6/22/14 (90 days postpartum) and bred her via AI in late evening. On Wednesday morning, I saw the clear sheet of fresh mucus on her tail. This slime had the appearance of ovulatory slime. Thus, I did "fret and start to analyze". And rightfully so, because later that day she was clearly in estrus. As Kris noted in the above post, the activity was at dusk. I bred her twice on Thursday the 10th. There was no vaginal plug. The gun went through without encountering any obstruction. I do not believe she was pregnant.

Kris: You got this right! I do fret and analyze. My frustration is when I don't observe the standing heat. I know what standing heat is. Dun may be correct that being out there among them too much is disturbing their normal behavior. But as you and he both mentioned, this is a difficult time to do heat detection. Temperatures are high here. During daylight hours, the cattle are too stressed by temperatures to engage in any activity. Thus, estrus behavior is deferred to evening and night.

I make an issue of procedure because it ruminates in my mind. It does cause me some uncertainty. But Kris, you are also right to recommend going with the "gut". I do. Most of the time, it is right.

I will say this: I am betting that she sticks this time. My gut tells me so. :D

 

[inyati13]

Add this tidbit. Standing in the shop after checking the heifers. This heifer has a significant bloody discharge, I assume that says she ovulated. It occurred to me: how does this blood from ovulation get through the vaginal plug if she was fertilized? Or does it get through before plug formation?

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

When does the bull get a turn?

 

[inyati13]

When does the bull get a turn?

So far looking like this group is bred AI. If I did not get Blaze on this second attempt. It will go to him. As soon as she settles, she is going out to pasture with the pregnant gals.

 

[TennesseeTuxedo]

Just send him to our place so he can see a little action.

:cboy: