I can't remember....

[Frankie]

When we got our first cows in 1986, we went to seminars, cattle association meetings, Noble Foundation meetings, everwhere we could to try and learn. At that time, Limousin was the breed of choice in this area. Red ones, of course. Big, pretty, muscled animals. There were some Smmentals, red and yellow, too. Big, spotted animals.

I don't remember anyone at any of these meetings telling us that we were getting our cows too big and we should stop using those big, muscled bulls.

Did I miss it? Because today I see poster after poster on this board telling us that we're getting our cows too big. When did this start? Can anyone tell me?

 

[turning grass into beef]

The phrase 'we're getting our cows to big' is a very general statement. Does this mean that the producer that has increased his cow size from a frame 2 to a frame 4 has gotten his cows to big?
Here is the opinion of our ranch. Take it for what it is worth.
http://www.saskvalleyshorthorns.com/opinions.html

 

[Brandonm2]

When we got our first cows in 1986, we went to seminars, cattle association meetings, Noble Foundation meetings, everwhere we could to try and learn. At that time, Limousin was the breed of choice in this area. Red ones, of course. Big, pretty, muscled animals. There were some Smmentals, red and yellow, too. Big, spotted animals.

I don't remember anyone at any of these meetings telling us that we were getting our cows too big and we should stop using those big, muscled bulls.

Did I miss it? Because today I see poster after poster on this board telling us that we're getting our cows too big. When did this start? Can anyone tell me?

I think Angus started it. I remember a big ad campaign they ran DURING THE 80s and early 90s showing an elephant out on a pasture with the slogan ~"Too big for out here" or something like that then they went on and extolled the virtues of the good looking little 4/5 frame Angus cow they had on the opposite page. And they also ran another ad campaign with a smiling young stylishly dressed rancher with a new pickup truck with about ~4 square bales of hay and 6 sacks of feed and some little old slovenly rancher with a beat up old pickup truck loaded down with square bales and feed sacks extolling the benefits of having moderate framed little easy keeping Angus cows that don't eat a lot instead of the big mooses the other breeds had.

 

[Frankie]

When we got our first cows in 1986, we went to seminars, cattle association meetings, Noble Foundation meetings, everwhere we could to try and learn. At that time, Limousin was the breed of choice in this area. Red ones, of course. Big, pretty, muscled animals. There were some Smmentals, red and yellow, too. Big, spotted animals.

I don't remember anyone at any of these meetings telling us that we were getting our cows too big and we should stop using those big, muscled bulls.

Did I miss it? Because today I see poster after poster on this board telling us that we're getting our cows too big. When did this start? Can anyone tell me?

I think Angus started it. I remember a big ad campaign they ran DURING THE 80s and early 90s showing an elephant out on a pasture with the slogan ~"Too big for out here" or something like that then they went on and extolled the virtues of the good looking little 4/5 frame Angus cow they had on the opposite page.

I remember that ad. Didn't they call it the "elephant" ad?

You really think it's taken 20 years for that ad to take effect?

 

[Brandonm2]

NO. It worked (to an extent). Back then the ELITE bulls (of all breeds) were frame 7 to frame 9. The bigger the bull the better. Giant cows were the NORM for many registered breeders. Moderation became a buzzword. Angus sold a lot of bulls to people with hard doing pencil gutted continental cows. Bull studs scaled back to frame 5s and 6s. There are Simmental Herds that were all red/white frame 8 cows back then that are solid black frame 5/6 herds now. Gelbviehs (which used to be monsters) actually won the 'most efficient' breed of cows at the last round of MARC testing. Pushing EPDs and performance still leads to frame creep. Why Angus added the $EN, mature height, and mature weight EPDs. The debate now is NOT between frame 4 people and frame 8 people (just about everybody now accepts that a frame 8 moose is not practical out on the ranch) it is between the frame 4 people and the Frame high 6 low 7 people. Cows have gotten deeper, wider, thicker, longer too. A lot of cows at 6 frame now weigh 1600+. That is a lot different animal than the 1600 pound frame 8s a lot of us remember from 1990 so the relationship between frame and weight has to also be rethought.

 

[dun]

The "too big" in my mind has to do with the forage base available and slaughter calves that aer "too big" to fit the box. For me, anything that is taller then my arm pit is "too big". I don;t want to stand on a box to AI. I've bred Braunvieh, Brown Swiss, Holstiens and Ankinas that I needd a milk crate to stand on.

dun

 

[MikeC]

Frame creep is not solely attributed to the Exotics.

The British breeds had to compete with the "Pounds on the trailer" attitude and grew their animals bigger.

If a frame 4 cow is that much more efficient than a frame 8, it only makes sense to me that a frame 2 would be more efficient than the 4's. And if we really wanted to be efficient we should all drop down to frame 0's. :lol: :lol:

I had a long talk with a feedlot man last week about his feeding some 1/2 Lowlines from North Dakota State Univ.

They were a full 24 months old before they finished. :roll:

I'm thinking this current obsession with frame score is going to push us downward again.

 

[Frankie]

I think you guys are right about forage being a limitor. At a bull sale a couple of years ago, some people actually told me they weren't interested in one of our bulls because he was too big. That was the first time anyone had ever said a bull was too big to me. They were planning to raise grass fed beef for Minnie Lou Bradley's program. I understand that in that program, smaller, faster finishing animals would be optimal. So my feelings weren't hurt, even though the bull actually weaned at 900 lbs. I thought that was pretty good early growth.

I see that Gardiner's claim their bulls are near the top of the Angus breed in pounds, while being in the middle (or lower) of the breed for frame. Like Brandonm2 says, that sometimes gets left out of the equation, too.