Huge calf on 1st calf heifer

[thommoos]

Getting home from work thursady I find a hiefer laying down, When i got to her she had one hoof sticking out, and it looked big. Unfortunately i was driving the company car and my truck was 35 miles away. 2 hours later my neighbor arrived. I had her put up, and we started. I must say having to never have pulled one I got a real learning experience last night. the 2 us could not get the calf to move, along came the winch, we about choked the cow pulling, this calf was stuck, had to let her head loose and we dragged her with the winch we ending up rolling her over twice to get the one leg loose inside all the while pulling finally at close to midnight the calf came out. He was breathing when it was just his neck out but in the ten minutes it took to get from the neck to the hips in pulling he suffacted. his weight about 115lbs for a Beefmaster needles to say I am in shock. The Bulls EPDs are -.1 for BW, I guess I blew that out of the water.

Is this a fluke ? :?:
I am still in shock over the size of that calf.

 

[Limomike]

fluke? probably. How long did she carry that calf?
I had a1st calf Limflex heifer try to deliver a 90+ lb calf, year before last. WE pulled on that calf, for over two hours, finally got it out. It was dead, took the heifer a while to recover, but we got her up, wobbly as she was, and she made it. bred back and had a normal calf the next go round.

 

[snake67]

Well, it happens and it is not fun - waiting all year for a calf and then losing it. It hurts the pocket book and that is what this biz is about.

I wrote on the other forum about my last calf of this year - of course all the others went fine and this one gave us grief.

It was the first pull we have done in about 6 or 8 years. Certainly wife has never pulled one since I started my overseas stints and that was 2008.

Pulled it - ran her into the squeeze and ten minutes later it was on the ground - 140 weighed pounds. Mom and bull calf doing fine

I know I get hit on for this by some folks, but we always breed for a heifer to be able to have a calf that hits 90 - 100 pounds - she has to be breedable at 800 pounds and that has to happen before 15 months because she WILL have her first calf at 24 months or she goes down the road. Not one cow in the herd cannot handle a 100 - 110 pound calf on her own. With normal presentations of course.

We generally have them in the 85 - 95 pound range with the ocassional 110 pounder - so pulling this calf - while not ideal - was not a cow or calf killer.

Sometimes I wonder if we do it to ourselves - people are breeding for that small calf and then those genetics get kept - the calf turns into a cow that has a small calf and so on - soon they cannot have a calf that is over 70 - 80 pounds without help.

EPD's do not always tells the whole story and no matter how small the calf is expected to be - sometimes it just does not happen that way - and you cannot predict - so no fault on your part.

Be that as it may - now what - keeping her or tossing her?

Bez

 

[greybeard]

Sometimes I wonder if we do it to ourselves - people are breeding for that small calf and then those genetics get kept - the calf turns into a cow that has a small calf and so on - soon they cannot have a calf that is over 70 - 80 pounds without help.

That's a very real possibility Bez.
The other thing is over-conditioning, and I think more and more, that is what happened with the one I had to pull earlier this year. I had that heifer too fat. Calf wasn't all that hard to pull, so I think the heifer was just so fat she gave up or didn't have to energy to push. Pelvic size could have been part of it too, but seemed to be plenty of room and give when I went in to attach the chains.

thommoos--do you not have a calf puller? fetal extractor?

 

[thommoos]

thommoos--do you not have a calf puller? fetal extractor?

all my stuff was in my truck, in the city. my neighbor brought his calf pullers, the worse part was the presentation right leg up and out left curled under and no room to manuver. like i said 115 lbs on a beefmaster, really unheard of in my circles. Beefmaster breeders usually do specically breed for a low BW, I Look at WW, YW, and scotal. In 9 years with beefmasters never pulled a one. till last night.

as for keeping her depends, not sure, very disheartning, rebuilding a heard then losing a calf. as Lasister said if they don't cut then ship them. Sell and buy another bred heifer thats an idea.

 

[Workinonit Farm]

Sometimes I wonder if we do it to ourselves - people are breeding for that small calf and then those genetics get kept - the calf turns into a cow that has a small calf and so on - soon they cannot have a calf that is over 70 - 80 pounds without help.

Bez

I have often thought about this. I've even brought it up for discussion with a couple of folks a few times (proved to be pointless).

I do think it possible that consistently breeding for low-birthweight and calving ease and retaining the females of those breedings could lead to difficult births as a result of smaller pelvic measurements amongst other possibilities.

thommoos-I'm sorry to hear that you lost the calf. Just one of those odd-ball things that happen sometimes.

Katherine

 

[DavisBeefmasters]

Sorry for your loss... that is a whopper of a calf for a Beefmaster but I don't know the genetics of the heifer or bull to say that it could not have happened.

With that presentation and that hard of a pull - I would be surprised if the heifer isn't scarred up that may impede her ability to breed back... you may want to have a vet take a looksie if you happen to have one out in the next few months before you decide to keep her.

That presentation is a tough one, especially if the heifer is small, we had a presentation like that a few years back -- leggy calf, but not heavy... we attached chains to the leg that was already out at the fetlock joint, shoved the whole calf back in to give ourselves some working room, and eventually managed to get the other leg up and chained... slid right out after that... elapsed time was beyond an hour, seemed like days.

I think backwards (not breach) is definitely an easier configuration than one front leg stuffed down by the calf's belly.

 

[Bigfoot]

I don't put as much faith in an EPD, as many do around here. It's not a crap shoot, I just don't bet the farm on them. The heifer is half the equation. I also have a lot of Charolais and charolais cross cows. Their calves have the ability to over ride LBW bulls in my opinion.

 

[greybeard]

thommoos--do you not have a calf puller? fetal extractor?

all my stuff was in my truck, in the city. my neighbor brought his calf pullers, the worse part was the presentation right leg up and out left curled under and no room to manuver. like i said 115 lbs on a beefmaster, really unheard of in my circles. Beefmaster breeders usually do specically breed for a low BW, I Look at WW, YW, and scotal. In 9 years with beefmasters never pulled a one. till last night.

as for keeping her depends, not sure, very disheartning, rebuilding a heard then losing a calf. as Lasister said if they don't cut then ship them. Sell and buy another bred heifer thats an idea.

9 years without assisting is a good record.
The one I pulled (and lost) was also a Beefmaster, but bred to a Charalais. 99 lbs. Normal presentation, but I am not sure how long she had been trying before I saw her that morning.
She's come back in and has been bred but not sure yet if she settled.

 

[Rosielou]

We had this experience too this year unfortunately. The first time we've had calving difficulties in a few years so we didn't even have a puller. We tried it by hand with a rope but couldn't do it so we had to get the tractor. A 100+ Santa Gertrudis bullcalf on a very young but leggy smutty char x heifer. I bought her under the impression she wasn't bred because she was young, but surprise, she was bred early! We thought the cow wasn't even going to make it because how big the calf and couldn't get up that night but she's doing good now. The calf was as large as some of our Angus sired 1-2 month old calves. Definitely shied me away from buying heifers. Now we just wait and see if she's going to breed back and calve without difficulty next time.

 

[chippie]

You really shouldn't tie one up and try to pull the calf with a winch, truck or tractor. The angles are all wrong for the calf to come out.
If the cow is standing, you pull at a downward angle. If the cow is laying down, you pull towards her hocks, parallel to the ground.
Your strangling the cow may have contributed to the calf dying. The calf depends on the cow until the umbilical cord breaks.

 

[snake67]

Getting home from work thursady I find a hiefer laying down, When i got to her she had one hoof sticking out, and it looked big. Unfortunately i was driving the company car and my truck was 35 miles away. 2 hours later my neighbor arrived. I had her put up, and we started. I must say having to never have pulled one I got a real learning experience last night. the 2 us could not get the calf to move, along came the winch, we about choked the cow pulling, this calf was stuck, had to let her head loose and we dragged her with the winch we ending up rolling her over twice to get the one leg loose inside all the while pulling finally at close to midnight the calf came out. He was breathing when it was just his neck out but in the ten minutes it took to get from the neck to the hips in pulling he suffacted. his weight about 115lbs for a Beefmaster needles to say I am in shock. The Bulls EPDs are -.1 for BW, I guess I blew that out of the water.

Is this a fluke ? :?:
I am still in shock over the size of that calf.

Well, on re-reading this I have a couple of suggestions for future pulls that happen because of a leg back. Head first presentation.

First - get her up if you can, standing and restrained.

Second - push the calf back in - DavisBeefmasters is spot on with this one - makes it easy to get things sorted - and you DO NOT pull a calf out with a leg back - ever.

Third - get the leg sorted

If you ever come upon this again - run your hand in along the leg and see if you can feel the nose. If there is no other leg then you need to go in all the way and work the shoulder blade to get the leg forward.

Two legs up - then pull.

If you get caught up with her straining while you are trying to get the leg forward - have someone walk around to the front and kick her in the nose - it will distract her and she will stop straining for a moment. You can get the presentation set right in that little time she is not straining.

When I get into a leg back I try to work on "opposites"

If it is the front right leg I often will use my left arm to get up and under the calf to pull the leg forward - and vice versa - might not always work that way but that is how I ususally start out. Sometimes I have to switch arms a few times but I can usually get it sorted in about ten minutes - I really like it if the cow is standing but I am not averse to lying down on the ground behind her.

Not to be harsh but this was probably a salvageable situation - winching and pulling and rolling the cow over tells me it got out of hand. Almost a guarantee kill of the calf - lucky the cow made it.

And the advice on the pull direction was bang on - if she is up you need to pull out and down - if she is down pull out and towards the hocks. A straight pull or even a slight up angle will not help you one bit.

If you get a backwards (which is not a breach) calf they usually come easy as long as there are two legs sticking out - if you get a backwards calf with a leg(s) down - call your vet asap unless you have someone who knows how to fetch the legs up - not always an easy task.

Hope she comes back for you - if all goes well this will be the last pull for a while - BUT - I can guarantee you one thing right now - if you plan to keep cows - you WILL be here again. LOL

I use an outfit called Dr. Franks to pull - gentle, easy and it does not take a rocket scientist to use - I guess you could say I am living proof of that. Go get one or something similar - it will make your life a whole bunch easier if you need to pull. Every person keeping cows should own one or something like it.

Best to you

Bez

 

[chippie]

Bez. you are awesome. great advice and easy to understand and read.

 

[Rosielou]

I understand Chippie, thank you for the advice! She was in the chute, not roped or tied or anything, sorry if I wrote that unclear. We tied the calf's feet and pulled, but the hips were locked with her pelvis and we couldn't do it by hand. It was already late because we found her with hooves out struggling. We were trying to get the calf out alive, and we did pull/angle down, we angled the bucket of the tractor and swung it. It wasn't expected, so we did what we could.

 

[greybeard]

I use a Dr Frank calf puller too. I have an old one (don't know what brand) that the ratchet was about wore out on but bought the Franks last year and it's a breeze to use. They coulda done a little better with that dinky support strap and adjusting buckle tho. That plastic won'tlast long.

Sometimes, if you can get both hands in past your wrists a ways--one on each side and push outward with your forearms it will help to open the pelvic area up a little if it's a difficult pull.

If she's standing and you are using a puller, be prepared for her to lay down at any time. You're going to be pulling down a little with the puller, but don't let the rod stick in the ground if she suddenly decides to drop to the ground.
And of course, don't position the yoke so low ya push her legs out from under her.

 

[Nesikep]

All good advice. I had 3 pulls in 2 years (60 calves).. One on a heifer that was a nightmare, a 115 lb thick bull calf, my old man and I pulled for about an hour, we were lucky he started breathing when he got halfways and got hiplocked, so another 10 minutes with everything we had, and we got him out, then he stopped breathing, so if i wasn't winded enough, i had to do CPR, and got him back around... the cow was pretty torn up, so we dosed her with tetracycline and she bred back, never made a very good calf the second go round either so we shipped her. Last year I had a backwards with hind legs forward, and that takes a bit of arm length to reach on a big cow, I found the trick to that, once you can reach it, is to try and get the calf's left leg first, a little above the hoof, and using a rotating motion to both push the calf forward, and pulling on the chain attached to that leg to help out. repeat for right leg. One word of caution, try and keep track of the umbilical cord and not tangle it up... Might also want to check for life signs in the calf before doing anything.
The last one I had was the second twin in my biggest cow (2000 lbs), and I didn't notice she had a twin until about 36 hours later... but I didn't figure there'd be a second calf when the first was 110 lbs... she was being pretty nasty too so I wasn't feeling like getting run over either. Anyhow, she's certainly got the record at our place with a pair of calves at 110 lb each. The second one was DOA, and may have been dead before the first one was even born, as his teeth were ripped out, and he had a couple skin tears in the navel and groin areas.. I think they were identical twins in one placenta, which would mean that the first calf's hind legs could have pushed in the mouth of the second... Once I got the legs straightened out I still had a bit of a pull since the cow had gotten a bit dry inside and was exhausted, so i had to do most of the work... she cleaned out well after that and still has one calf to show for it, who's a heck of a beaut too. The second calf also had a pretty bad smell to him, which was stronger than I'd have expected if he died when the first was born... but who knows there right??

Oh, and if the cow is up and in the chute, lay some tie-down straps underneath her so that they're already there if she does go down, it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to thread them through after... (I learned the hard way)

 

[ANAZAZI]

I cull cows with calving problems. If the calf is lost I sell the cow as soon as she is recovered from calving.
If we save the calf she keeps it all summer and then I cull the cow after weaning.
The beefmaster breed got to where it is by culling every difficult animal.
Please follow that great tradition.

Regarding what will happen to the cows ability to calve when breeding for low birth weights, all I can say is breed for easy calving, not low birthweight.
Of course, breeding for easier calving may partly result in lower calf weights, but my point is that if one keep the ones that work well, it is not that important why they work well.

 

[chippie]

I understand Chippie, thank you for the advice! She was in the chute, not roped or tied or anything, sorry if I wrote that unclear. We tied the calf's feet and pulled, but the hips were locked with her pelvis and we couldn't do it by hand. It was already late because we found her with hooves out struggling. We were trying to get the calf out alive, and we did pull/angle down, we angled the bucket of the tractor and swung it. It wasn't expected, so we did what we could.

Rosielou,, I was posting from my phone and couldn't quote. I was referring to the original poster's remark:

...the 2 us could not get the calf to move, along came the winch, we about choked the cow pulling, ..

 

[Rosielou]

:secret: Oops now I feel a bit incompetent! Sorry for that.

 

[thommoos]

Well, on re-reading this I have a couple of suggestions for future pulls that happen because of a leg back. Head first presentation.

First - get her up if you can, standing and restrained.

Second - push the calf back in - DavisBeefmasters is spot on with this one - makes it easy to get things sorted - and you DO NOT pull a calf out with a leg back - ever.

Third - get the leg sorted

If you ever come upon this again - run your hand in along the leg and see if you can feel the nose. If there is no other leg then you need to go in all the way and work the shoulder blade to get the leg forward.

Two legs up - then pull.

If you get caught up with her straining while you are trying to get the leg forward - have someone walk around to the front and kick her in the nose - it will distract her and she will stop straining for a moment. You can get the presentation set right in that little time she is not straining.

When I get into a leg back I try to work on "opposites"

If it is the front right leg I often will use my left arm to get up and under the calf to pull the leg forward - and vice versa - might not always work that way but that is how I ususally start out. Sometimes I have to switch arms a few times but I can usually get it sorted in about ten minutes - I really like it if the cow is standing but I am not averse to lying down on the ground behind her.

Not to be harsh but this was probably a salvageable situation - winching and pulling and rolling the cow over tells me it got out of hand. Almost a guarantee kill of the calf - lucky the cow made it.

And the advice on the pull direction was bang on - if she is up you need to pull out and down - if she is down pull out and towards the hocks. A straight pull or even a slight up angle will not help you one bit.

If you get a backwards (which is not a breach) calf they usually come easy as long as there are two legs sticking out - if you get a backwards calf with a leg(s) down - call your vet asap unless you have someone who knows how to fetch the legs up - not always an easy task.

Hope she comes back for you - if all goes well this will be the last pull for a while - BUT - I can guarantee you one thing right now - if you plan to keep cows - you WILL be here again. LOL

I use an outfit called Dr. Franks to pull - gentle, easy and it does not take a rocket scientist to use - I guess you could say I am living proof of that. Go get one or something similar - it will make your life a whole bunch easier if you need to pull. Every person keeping cows should own one or something like it.

Best to you

Bez[/quote]

To clarify We tried for to change the presentation, the first thing we did, but we could not get the calf to back up or turn just was not enough room , the reason we had to tie her was beause she quit standing in the chute, she was choking in the panels. Guys really this was a mess, I hope I never see this again.

As far as Beefmaster Genetics, Sire is a Captain Sugar son, heifer is a Pride's prediction daughter out of some other Magic stuff, may be too much Black Magic.