How would you breed this cow?

[gizmom]

We purchased a new cow last week I actually know how I will breed her but am curious as to how others would. So just for giggles thought we could discuss various bulls that you folks would use and why. She is a 2000 model so we will use her in the flush pen, she is safe in calf right now and should calve in September so we will be flushing her in January.

Information on the cow in question:

Ambrose Erica A47 registration number 13756009
She is out of EXT and Homestead Erica 809

EPD's
BW WW YW Milk
.8 43 79 29

Thanks in advance for your input.

Gizmom

 

[RD-Sam]

Her EPD isn't great for carcass quality, something I breed for. I would think the carcass data would be reasonably accurate since she shows data on 8 progeny. My two bulls I base my breeding on are 036 and EXT, since you have no 036 and you have EXT as the sire, I would flush her to 036. She has a pretty big udder to only have a 29 on milk, I would have guessed mid 30's or even 40.

 

[Baldie Maker]

I'd flush her to the SIMM bull upgrade

 

[jscunn]

Who is she bred to calve to in September?

Also I would consider asking the previous owners what seemed to work or not work with her, I personally would clean her up a bit in the udder suspension department, but usually that is the one thing EXT is very good at so I dont know. Other than that she looks very nice.

 

[houstoncutter]

Put a Limi straw in her

 

[Red Bull Breeder]

Houston i was a gonna say that, but i figured 3way would call me a breed pimp. :lol: Don't think that what the OP was a wanting to hear.

 

[houstoncutter]

Good ol fullblood, would make a mighty fine animal

 

[R V]

We all have different preferences for our herds, but if we are to give a helpful opinion, we need more information. What are wanting and what is your market? Why is she better than your cows or what traits are you wanting to take advantage of? What is the value/purpose of her calves? Are you wanting to make heifers to keep? A future herd sire???

 

[DOC HARRIS]

gizmom-

Oh, aren't you a sly and crafty lady?!

Given that the current EPD prediction standards are drifting higher than they were when Ambrose Erica A47 was calved (yr.2000), it is encumbent upon a Registered Breeder to utilize a bull whose characteristics and traits will compliment those positive ones of the dam, and surpass the negative ones. This working hypothesis assumes that you are not planning cross breeding for a year or so until she can prove herself as a donor - with the utilization of remarkable and BALANCED genetics proven by DNA markers and High-Density50K Molecular Value Predictions. By doing the above, you can almost guarantee successful breeding results by producing optimal progeny.

Having said all this, I have to state that I am not an enthusiast of any direct descendants of N Bar Emulation EXT, in spite of the fact that he is one of the most prolific and outstanding bulls in the history of the Angus breed. But his 20+ years of some negative EPDs and qualitative and quantitative traits, accuracies, and the variances of traits disqualify him in my planning agendas from very much genetic influence in future progeny production programs.

Therefore my first focus on a mating agenda for this cow would be one to improve upon WW, CERTAINLY Docility (-7!), reduce M from 29 to around 25 or less, increase $EN to a positive number, increase IMF to +/- 30, Increase RE to .35-.60, and increase $YG to a plus factor. I don't know what her Frame Size is, but lowering it or keeping it in the 54 range would appeal to me.

You have access to some of the most exciting "breed improvers" in the history of the Angus breed right now via AI, and I encourage you to focus strongly on bulls that will leap-frog your results incrementally. You sound as if that is exactly what you have in your mind, and I applaud you for it if that is the case.

Here are two or three bulls that I would consider:

Consensus 7229 - Angus Reg # 16447771 (Compare these EPD's with those of Ambrose Erica A47 and extrapolate them into their progeny!
Leachman Resolution G228U - Angus Reg # 16248786 :banana:
Rito 9M25 of Rita 5F56 PRED - Angus Reg # 16340278 (yes, in spite of Precision and EXT in his pedigree) :deadhorse:
GAR Ingenuity - Angus Reg # 16497066 (same 'excuse' as above)
SS Objective T510 OT26 - Angus Reg # 13776378 ( By using this bull along the line you will infuse his spectacular characteristics and traits into your replacement heifers and their progeny! :clap: :clap: :clap:

There are dozens of other bulls currently producing progeny that you could consider, but avoiding Single Trait Selection decisions should be JOB 1 in your decision-making proocols!

Exciting times, gizmom!!

DOC HARRIS

 

[RD-Sam]

gizmom-

Oh, aren't you a sly and crafty lady?!

Given that the current EPD prediction standards are drifting higher than they were when Ambrose Erica A47 was calved (yr.2000), it is encumbent upon a Registered Breeder to utilize a bull whose characteristics and traits will compliment those positive ones of the dam, and surpass the negative ones. This working hypothesis assumes that you are not planning cross breeding for a year or so until she can prove herself as a donor - with the utilization of remarkable and BALANCED genetics proven by DNA markers and High-Density50K Molecular Value Predictions. By doing the above, you can almost guarantee successful breeding results by producing optimal progeny.

Having said all this, I have to state that I am not an enthusiast of any direct descendants of N Bar Emulation EXT, in spite of the fact that he is one of the most prolific and outstanding bulls in the history of the Angus breed. But his 20+ years of some negative EPDs and qualitative and quantitative traits, accuracies, and the variances of traits disqualify him in my planning agendas from very much genetic influence in future progeny production programs.

Therefore my first focus on a mating agenda for this cow would be one to improve upon WW, CERTAINLY Docility (-7!), reduce M from 29 to around 25 or less, increase $EN to a positive number, increase IMF to +/- 30, Increase RE to .35-.60, and increase $YG to a plus factor. I don't know what her Frame Size is, but lowering it or keeping it in the 54 range would appeal to me.

You have access to some of the most exciting "breed improvers" in the history of the Angus breed right now via AI, and I encourage you to focus strongly on bulls that will leap-frog your results incrementally. You sound as if that is exactly what you have in your mind, and I applaud you for it if that is the case.

Here are two or three bulls that I would consider:

Consensus 7229 - Angus Reg # 16447771 (Compare these EPD's with those of Ambrose Erica A47 and extrapolate them into their progeny!
Leachman Resolution G228U - Angus Reg # 16248786 :banana:
Rito 9M25 of Rita 5F56 PRED - Angus Reg # 16340278 (yes, in spite of Precision and EXT in his pedigree) :deadhorse:
GAR Ingenuity - Angus Reg # 16497066 (same 'excuse' as above)
SS Objective T510 OT26 - Angus Reg # 13776378 ( By using this bull along the line you will infuse his spectacular characteristics and traits into your replacement heifers and their progeny! :clap: :clap: :clap:

There are dozens of other bulls currently producing progeny that you could consider, but avoiding Single Trait Selection decisions should be JOB 1 in your decision-making proocols!

Exciting times, gizmom!!

DOC HARRIS

All of the bulls you mentioned have a negative $EN, how will they improve the cows already negative $EN? Heck, I have trouble keeping a positive $EN when breeding two with + numbers to start with, I bred two +$10 together and got a -$7 EPD. :bang: I don't like Objective at all, the third worst calf I have had out of one of my best cows.

 

[DOC HARRIS]

RD-Sam-

As I have 'discussed' with you many times - - you are thinking (?) "Single Trait Selection" decisions again! Read my entire post again. (Even the subtle parts that might help to you understand). There are many extremely successful producers who have established their herd genetics by utilizing SS Objective T510 OT26 breeding in their Foundation seedstock. Insofar as $EN is concerned, here is another example your "Single Trait Selection" focusing! But - I have attempted in the past to help you see that concept - - but - - :deadhorse:

Try "understanding" my post - again!

DOC HARRIS

 

[3waycross]

Any acceptable Angus bull with a DOC score above 20, a little marbling , some ribeye, and not too much milk!

My guess is you already figured that out. I am looking forward to your full disclosure!

 

[W.B.]

Obviously you know what you are going to be breeding her to. I have no idea what your intentions with the cows progeny are. (show ring, range bulls whatever) A direct daughter of Ext usually mates well with some Alliance 6595 blood but I am sure the #'s gurus on here will have a fit with that idea. Would stay away from Objective breeding as he is strictly a #'s bull that will throw a cat, dog and about anything else with bovine DNA. Her udder suspension while not terrible should be a consideration in your decision.

 

[R V]

Agree most with W.B. and the theory behind "Doc," but don't like the type of bulls that he picked. Those bulls would make cows that wouldn't thrive in my environment unless supplemented. The commercial breeders don't/can't afford to supplement their cattle and I quit as well. Why make cattle that won't work long term for my customers? I made several cattle like the ones Doc proposed via ET and AI and most were beautiful to look at through first calving and the bulls performed well at the bull tests, but I consistently had a hard time getting the ET and AI heifers to breed 3 years in a row. These were out of my "best" cows. They were too high octane for my environment. Ironically, about half the heifers out of the herd bull have continued to breed back and made the cut while only 3-4 of AI and ET heifers are still around 5 years later. The commercial cows did even better than that. That much culling about put me out of the registered business. I still believe in registered breeds, but have changed my business plan and the type of cows and bulls that I am using. Thus far, it has been much easier and my life has been much less stressful, but only time will tell. :cboy:

 

[robert]

For a 12 yr old cow that udder is not too bad, teat size is definitely still acceptable, with both Scotch Cap and T-71 behind her I would guard against excess white, which means avoiding bulls like 6595. For us Boyd New Day has been a really good, reliable fit with EXT /Scotch Cap types, white is not an issue, dispositions fine. We've also use our own Right Time x 6807 bull back onto those EXTs and EXT x New Days very successfully. Forget about the $BS numbers, concentrate on functionality if making daughters of a reliable cow is your aim.

 

[RD-Sam]

RD-Sam-

As I have 'discussed' with you many times - - you are thinking (?) "Single Trait Selection" decisions again! Read my entire post again. (Even the subtle parts that might help to you understand). There are many extremely successful producers who have established their herd genetics by utilizing SS Objective T510 OT26 breeding in their Foundation seedstock. Insofar as $EN is concerned, here is another example your "Single Trait Selection" focusing! But - I have attempted in the past to help you see that concept - - but - - :deadhorse:

Try "understanding" my post - again!

DOC HARRIS

I never breed for a single trait, I try and cover as many bases as possible with each breeding.

 

[RD-Sam]

Obviously you know what you are going to be breeding her to. I have no idea what your intentions with the cows progeny are. (show ring, range bulls whatever) A direct daughter of Ext usually mates well with some Alliance 6595 blood but I am sure the #'s gurus on here will have a fit with that idea. Would stay away from Objective breeding as he is strictly a #'s bull that will throw a cat, dog and about anything else with bovine DNA. Her udder suspension while not terrible should be a consideration in your decision.

I can't think of anyone that had luck with Objective in the real world. In fact, his offspring weren't even that good to eat in my opinion.

 

[gizmom]

Ok I finally got a chance to stop and read some of the comments on how some of you folks would breed this cow. I am going to try to address most of the comments then reveal what direction I am thinking of going.
RD-Sam
She does need some improvement in carcass quality but I don't think she is all that bad as far as carcass, the average for Angus dams is:
CW 18 Marb. .34 Re .18 Fat .006 $W 24.42 $F 18.72 $G 22.50 $ 48.00
While the cow in question has current data of:
CW 26 Marb. .18 Re -.01 Fat .046 $W 31.80 $F 21.77 $G 6.29 $B 40.17
So can she use improvement yes and then what bulls will do that but also address the other items that need to be addressed.
Baldie Maker I like SIMM cattle and have a number of simm angus cross cows in my herd but breeding this particular cow to a SIMM bull isn't going to happen. I admit I am a bit prejudice and wouldn't consider a different breed.
JSCUNN
She is bred to Connealy Impression which in all honesty is not a bull that I would have selected for this cow. I concede that he will improved her WW and YW as well as her carcass numbers, but at the expense of adding more milk which I don't think she needs and the biggy of an EN of -25.35.
Houstoncutter – NOPE & NOPE
R V
I don't know that I would say she is better than my cows we flush some of the cows we have raised, she just offers a new twist to some of the genetics we already have in place. We will sell her bulls and retain some of her heifers; we may retain one of her bull calves for cleanup. We may also sell some of her heifers.
Doc Harris,
Sly and crafty lol you made me smile on that one! I don't know if I am sly or crafty but I sure enjoy these type of discussions. As always you have made some excellent points and I agree with you on balanced EPD's we don't breed for any extreme and am not about to start now. Unlike you I really like EXT influenced cattle and have had excellent results with them. I think all of us have certain genetic line that we like and dislike and that is a direct result of our experiences with these particular lines. I agree that I need to look at docility reduce M and increase $EN.
Consensus 7229 looks like he would improve in a number of areas but I have never seen any calves out of this bull and don't like the EN number. Also I don't know the frame size of this bull.

Leachman Resolution G228U Another bull that looks like he would work and I do like the EN number but again having never seen any progeny or knowing his fame size I would be nervous using him.
Rito 9M25 of Rita 5F56 a double whammy of too much milk and negative EN would eliminate him for me.
GAR Ingenuity Same problem with him as the Rito 9M25 bull
SS Objective T510 0T26 again same problem
I sure don't want to select for a single trait, but when I choose I want to do the best job I can to keep a nice balance on all of the traits.
W.B.
The honest truth is I have not decided how to breed this cow. I have however narrowed it down to about three different bulls none of which I have addressed as yet. Isn't it a shame that people would expect me to breed differently for the show ring. I have always felt that a cow that works in the pasture is the kind that should be winning in the show ring. But that is a discussion for another thread. I happen to like 6595 a bunch but don't feel it is the right fit for this cow. Her udder suspension isn't really all that bad when you consider that she is 12 years old, but is a consideration.
RV I agree Doc is spot on with what to look at to improve on but I am not sure that any of the bulls that he has mentioned will work well in my program.
Robert,
Funny you mentioned New Day 8005 because he is on my short list. We have used him a bunch and have never been disappointed with his bull or heifer calves. He would improve both WW and YW bring down milk a bit and improve carcass marginally. Overall I think he would be an excellent choice he is positive on Doc and slightly neg on EN.
Two other bulls I am considering are:
OCC Missing Link 830M registration 14456399 and OCC Juneau 807j registration # 13627989
As Doc said exciting times!

gizmom
http://www.gizmoangus.com

 

[jscunn]

gizmom,
Sorry I didnt communicate that well, I just thought you should protect her on udder suspension, the udder suspension isnt bad when you consider her age. I agree about Connealy Impression, but maybe it is a bull you can sell, it will have a good set of numbers.

If you decide to do the simm-angus, I recently saw some Grandmaster daughters that were fantastic..

Good luck with her, maybe one day I can swing by and see her.

 

[Broken Road]

I like the cow, but you do not mention your objective. Mine would be to make some cash. With that in mind, I would use Sitz Upward or Connealy Consensus. For carcass, possibly Rito Tremendous or 50/50. For show cattle, First and Goal.